Christmas in the Schools

[John_John]

Polycarp

John John, I can only conclude that you are wilfully refusing to accept the distinction between religious belief and ethnic origin that several posters have carefully and patiently explained to you.

Scan up a bit and read my post today on this issue.

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Y2K, BFD

[John_John]

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polycarp

Having read the emendations that followed my reading part of this thread and starting a post, I must withdraw my rather heated argument. John John, I apologize. Clearly you see the distinction, more or less, and were man enough to say so. Forgive my going off the deep end before I had finished reading.

No problem, Poly.

[David_B]

Melin whines:

Poor widdle biddy David … Aw, poor poor David, run to Mommy … David, we always knew you were an anti-Christian bigot. Now we know that you’re a hypocrite as well. Since you apparently are only about six years old, though, we can hope that you will grow out of it.

In case there was anybody left wondering why I won’t bother to respond to this particular person, she just made it pretty clear.

[John_John]

Melin

David, we always knew you were an anti-Christian bigot. Now we know that you’re a hypocrite as well. Since you apparently are only about six years old, though, we can hope that you will grow out of it.

It is very troubling to learn that. I am very upset at this news. That might account for his unexplained silence.

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Y2K, BFD

[John_John]

david b

In case there was anybody left wondering why I won’t bother to respond to this particular person, she just made it pretty clear.

No, David, what is clear is the motivation behind for your loud accusations and continued childish silence. Do not start a controversial thread if you have no plans to stick around to defend your groundless claims.

Y2K, BFD

[pldennison]

Yes, David, your distrotion is causing dissention. CASE DISMISSED!
(NB: Not a joke at your expense, DB. The ones who need to get it, get it.)

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“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather

[Keeves]

Ignorance is a very powerful tool of self-destruction, especially if one does not realize that he is ignorant. Unfortunately, this self-destruction can often result in damage to the surroundings as well. However, both of these effects can be lessened if one is honest enough to realize that he is ignorant.

I’ll explain:

In the OP, David did write that his

son goes to a park district child-and-parent class.

I, for one, have had absolutely no idea what “park district” means. I figured that it was significant in some way, though I was not sure what it meant. Perhaps his home is near his town’s park, and the schools there have a different Board Of Education than the schools downtown. Or something. In any case, from his postings, in which he clearly felt that the church/state rules should apply, I accepted the presumption that it is some kind of public school. I realized that I was ignorant of the meaning of the term “park district”, and I made tentative guesses about it.

Other people were also ignorant, but they did not realize that they were ignorant, and they argued against David, asking why he is making such a big deal of it, inasmuch as his son attends a private school.

The problem was compounded when David responded angrily, referring people to the OP, without realizing the vagueness inherent in it. Over and over, David was challenged on this point, and his only response was to refer to the OP, unaware that people were rereading the OP, yet remaining ignorant of the phrases therein.

And the ignorance continued and grew, until Kepi’s post of 10:27 am today, which finally explained that

It was a pre-school program offered through his local parks department.

Alas, Kepi too flew off the handle, not realizing that other people (such as myself) were unfamiliar with the term “park district”.

Friends, the goal of Straight Dope is to battle ignorance. It is indeed taking longer than we thought. If someone posts something that you don’t understand, ask. And if someone doesn’t understand your explanation, try re-explaining it in other terms, and not simply refer him back to a previous post. We’re all in this together.

[manhattan]

I read through the recent Christmas/holiday threads and I scanned the ones from June. The one thing I didn’t find that I would have liked to is a cite. Perhaps I missed it.

Does someone have a cite of the SCOTUS case that announced to the world that Christmas is a secular holiday. Even a Cert. Denied statement would be helpful. I just gotta read how they reached that conclusion.

Livin’ on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine

[hardcore]

If Christmas is truly a secular holiday, then no one should mind if it is renamed to “Xmas Holiday Show” or something similar next year.

[Jodi]

County of Allegheny v. ACLU, 492 U.S. 573, 610-611, 109 S. Ct. 3086, 3110, 106 L.Ed.2d 472 (1989), from whence:

A secular state, it must be remembered, is not the same as an atheistic or antireligious state. A secular state establishes neither atheism nor religion as its official creed. . . .

To be sure, in a pluralistic society there may be some would-be theocrats, who wish that their religion were an established creed, and some of them perhaps may be even audacious enough to claim that the lack of established religion discriminates against their preferences. But this claim gets no
relief, for it contradicts the fundamental premise of the Establishment Clause itself. The antidiscrimination principle inherent in the Establishment Clause necessarily means that would-be discriminators on the basis of religion cannot prevail. . . .

For this reason, the claim that prohibiting government from celebrating Christmas as a religious holiday discriminates against Christians in favor of nonadherents must fail. Celebrating Christmas as a religious, as opposed to a secular, holiday, necessarily entails professing, proclaiming, or believing that Jesus of Nazareth, born in a manger in Bethlehem, is the Christ, the Messiah. If the government celebrates Christmas as a religious holiday (for example, by issuing an official proclamation saying: “We rejoice in the glory of Christ’s birth!”), it means that the government really is declaring Jesus to be the Messiah, a specifically Christian belief. In contrast, confining the government’s own celebration of Christmas to the holiday’s secular aspects does not favor the religious beliefs of non-Christians over those of
Christians. Rather, it simply permits the government to acknowledge the holiday without expressing an allegiance to Christian beliefs, an allegiance that would truly favor Christians over non-Christians. To be sure, some Christians may wish to see the government proclaim its allegiance to Christianity in a religious celebration of Christmas, but the Constitution does not permit the gratification of that desire, which would contradict the “the logic of secular liberty” it is the purpose of the Establishment Clause to protect.

Emphasis mine.

You’re welcome.

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Jodi

Fiat Justitia

[manhattan]

Hey! No fair saying “You’re welcome” before I get a chance to say “Thank you”!

Thank you!

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Livin’ on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine

[John_John]

I just did a search of Parks Dept pre shool and found that it does have a fee, as I said, and that a birth certificate must also be produced at time of registration. It would seem that then was the appropiate time to voice your specific Jewish-atheistic restriction on what activities your son would or would not be available for. It also said that parent- teacher- student meetings take place often.

It also mentioned that some time would be allocated to simple math, learning alphabet, etc., in addition to typical coloring, toddler activities.

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Y2K, BFD

[system]

I dont understand why anyone would consider Valentines Day and St. Pats to be “christian”. I never have.

[tracer]

Because they have “Saint” in their names.

[system]

Well let’s see, if I’m a stereotypical lawyer, guess I’ll live up to the label and actually examine the record and the evidence.

David says:

I mean, Christian kids are going to do Christmas at home and/or church anyway, and that is where religion belongs – in the home and church.

And nobody, including myself, disagrees with his premise that the public schools should not be pushing religion, and that religion does not belong in school.

Then David says:

But when a government-sponsored institution (his pre-school or parent/child class) makes him feel uncomfortable because they are pushing their holiday on him, that is where the line must be drawn.

He’s also said (addressing someone else, since he’s decided not to talk to me):

We’re talking about the public schools. In fact, I pointed this out to you at least twice already. Frankly, I think you have a lot of nerve to tell me that I should just live with it and not change it when the
public schools push a given religious holiday.

Now we got into a big discussion over whether the things that David was objecting to were in fact religious symbols or not, and whether they were Christian religious symbols or not. Note that David certainly thinks they are all Christian:

A wreath. A Christmas ornament. Santa’s hat. Etc." This is not a Christian school and there is simply no excuse for this type of thing.

Okay, so David has now established that he doesn’t want his child exposed to what he thinks are Christian symbols in school, apparently regardless of whether those symbols are thought by Christians themselves to be religious or not. Kepi pointed out that if those symbols are from another religion, even if not Christian, then they have no place in school either. Well and good.

So, the next logical question becomes, is David objecting to religion in the public schools, given his passionate devotion to the First Amendment? Or is he objecting just to Christmas, or just to Christian holidays?

So the next logical question becomes, what about other religious holiday symbols that may be encountered in school? If the objection is First Amendment based and asserts that ALL religious symbols – or symbols which someone associates with religion – don’t belong in school, then it is a fair analogy to make to how David reacts when symbols associated with other religious holydays are put forth in school. Thus, early on, I stated:

But the things that David has escribed here have no religious significance. In my mind it would be the same as being offended because, at Thanksgiving time, the kids drew a picture of a turkey or a cornicopia, given that Thanksgiving was specifically instituted as a Christian event. Or exchanged paper hearts on Valentine’s Day (you do know that it’s actually St. Valentine’s Day, right?).

The following day I asked a direct question:

David, did the school acknowledge Halloween? Did you complain about it if they did? Did it do anything to recognize Thanksgiving? What was your response? Have you ever given your wife a Valentine’s card or gift? Will you complain if the kids are cutting out red paper hearts in February?

David’s never answered that question. I’m not the only one interested in the answer, obviously. Kepi stated:

I suspect that he hasn’t answered your question because he has yet to figure out how he can call it “a strawman” and get away with it. So answer the question already, David. Do you object to the trappings of any religiously (i.e., Christian) based holiday, no matter how secular those trappings are? Or is it OK to expose your child to those trappings, since they theoretically don’t have any religious meaning anyway?

Majormd then asked:

A few questions have been asked that you haven’t answered. Do you/your family celebrate other holidays?

yosemitebabe said:

I have read all of this thread, and I still am waiting with baited breath to hear David share with us how he deals with Saint Patrick’s Day, Halloween, Thanksgiving, etc. These holidays also have some religious connections, how do you deal with the school’s coverage of them? You seem to be answering and responding to many things, and you seem to be paying attention to what people are posting here. But you never seem to get around to answering that question. So I’ll join in and remind you of it.

Kepi said later:

Simply put, David objected to the presentation of the secular aspects of Christmas. I presume that he would be equally offended by the presentation of the secular aspects of Easter (Easter bunnies, dyed eggs, baby chicks, etc.) Yet, from his failure to respond to Melin’s question, we assume that he has no objections to the presentation of the secular aspects of Halloween, Valentine’s Day, Thanksgiving, St. Patrick’s Day, etc. Why the inconsistency?

yosemitebabe repeated:

I am not actually thinking that David has no merit to his complaint. I don’t want kids to feel left out, and I don’t want anyone’s religion shoved down little kid’s throats. However, I just want to know his answer to the oft-asked (and oft-ignored, by him) question about these other holidays.

I asked the same question of Keeves, and he had the integrity and the manners to answer:

Great question. I regard Halloween, St. Valentines’s Day, and (added by someone else) St. Patrick’s Day, as primarily Christian holidays, and I try to avoid participating in them, to whatever extent I can. That means, for example, that I do wish my friends and neighbors a Merry Christmas and such, but I have no Halloween decorations at all on my home, and I reluctantly give a quarter or so to each child who comes to my door. (I say “reluctantly”, because it does
constitute participation in a religion other than my own, but I also recognize the need to stay on good terms with my neighbors.)

There’s a thoughtful and honest answer that can certainly be respected.

Then David comes in and says:

I’m ignoring Melin! I saw in the previous thread, and then again here, that she is acting like the stereotypical lawyer and seems more interested in “winning” that discussing the issue. Heck, she even brought in her pal Sue for backup to have somebody else chanting, “David answer the question.”

Now, of course, Sue has no history of participating in Great Debates with David on religious issues at all. Nope, guess I’m influential enough to have a major/doctor as my very own flunkie. And nobody else was asking for an answer to the question. Is it a “stereotypical lawyer” to ask for the answer to a logical question? Guess we’ve got a lot of 'em around here, then.

David did say:

Two: I was also going to point out that many religious Jews do get rather peeved with Valentine’s Day and Halloween, but then Keeves went and pointed that out himself.

Well, okay. But we know that David is not a religious Jew, and we see that he has STILL not answered the question.

Goldie

[tracer]

A page or so ago, John John wrote:

It took me 8 pages but I was finally able to show, Bowery Manhattan how bad it would be for the planet if we keep reproducing with no regard to the environment.

Funny, I thought you only showed that you could keep repeating the same self-contradictory things over and over again until everyone got bored and left.

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The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.

[pldennison]

Oh, for fuck’s sake, Melin, I was making fun of John. It was supposed to be, like, funny, you know?

I really don’t much care what David’s answer to the question is, as I have become monumentally uninterested in the topic. In 4 more days, Christmas will mercifully be gone for another 366.

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“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather

[Keeves]

See, this is what I meant when I said we have to clarify ourselves better. I had thought that The Question David Refuses To Answer was “Why are you complaining about what goes on at a private school?”, but now Melin has cleared that up, and really the question which you’re all wondering is “What does that school do on Halloween et al, and how do you feel about that?”

[John_John]

Pldennison

Oh, for fuck’s sake, Melin, I was making fun of John. It was supposed to be, like, funny, you know?

Did I miss something? Melin scrupulously avoided menton of my name or use of any of my posts.

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Y2K, BFD

[mipsman]

I just saw a holiday decoration with a snowman on it. As I am from California, I resent people shoving snowmen in my face at this time of year when they are not part of my landscape or culture (such as it is). How dare schools perpetrate this icon, symbolic of something I find unpleasant (shoveling snow, slipping on ice, being cold) on children. I am going to go look for a local child who is depressed because he was exposed to snowmen as a holiday icon and knew that he could not participate.