Okay gang, let’s pretend that Christmas is a totally secular holiday as it is practiced in the public schools. Any objections to schools not mentioning it at all? Let the tradition go on at home or church, let the ads spring forth, and let the Christmas specials multiply. If it is truly secular, it shouldn’t matter to Christians, should it?
John John, how exactly did you check into Brother D’s park dept. school program?
(1) FWIW, I’d be interested to hear David as an outspoken atheist confirm that he objects equally strongly to his child(ren) being present in a school where Jewish festivals/holidays are referred to - may one presume that the dreidel causes him as much agony of spirit as the Christmas tree?
(unless he’s already said so elsewhere, in which case I beg his pardon but would like the reference)
(2)
I apologise to whoever said this - I can’t remember who you were and I’m too idle to scroll back and look. I think this is a good idea, if it serves to highlight and distinguish between the existence of two co-terminous but entirely different festivals now conflated in the term “Christmas”. “Christmas” shd be properly reserved for the religious festival, thus excluding Santa, reindeer and the rest; and “Midwinter Pig-out”, or “Festival to Remind us that the Sun WILL Return next Spring” could continue to carry out its legitimate secular function
Melin,
Great post and fantastic perseverence!
mipsman,
This is the funniest thing I’ve read all week! Good Job!
John John wrote:
… Nah, too easy.
slythe: to quote you -
It doesn’t really matter to me. Too many damned Santa Hats and snowmen around anyway. However, if it were actually universally agreed that is were a secular holiday, then why would anyone want it taken out of public schools? It’s something fun for the kids to look forward to in school. Hey - it’s all about gifts, and kids can’t get enough of that. Kids love holidays - so why deprive them of a little secular coverage of them at school?.
I am still focusing on David and the question about the other holidays. I have no axe to grind with David. I am not a veteran Doper, I really don’t even know what David’s about. Also, as I have mentioned before, I don’t actually think that his complaints are entirely without merit. But it is odd that he dodges the question, and has never directly answered how he dealt with the school during Halloween and St. Valentine’s day, etc. Since this seems directly related to the topic (public schools and their coverage of holidays that have Christian roots) it seems odd that he has been less than direct in his answers. So I am coming to the same conclusion that Melin is coming to on it. I suspect he doesn’t want to admit that he didn’t make an issue regarding those other holidays at the school.
Slythe, Christmas IS a religious Holiday, or supposed to be, as practiced in our churches and homes but is secular as far as schools, department stores and TV goes. The point was that the secular aspects of the winter celebration were being labled Christian, which in actual fact are non religious.
We have the blending of two holidays, winter solstice and Christams, being celebrated at the same time. In 25 years the line between Hunakkah, Winter Solstice and Christams will blur, as they almost do now. Why do Jews give presents on Hunakkah? My guess is so Jewish kids don’t feel left out of the present-giving MAYHEM-ORGY.
I personaly think this commercialization of Christmas is out of hand and obscene.
Y2K, BFD
The legitimate question asked of David, and he evades like the plague, would you, or did you, make the same objection to the observance of Jewish holidays? Let me hazard a guess. No, he would say that since he is a Jewish-atheist those holidays were to reinforce his Jewish life view. Yeah, right!
Y2K, BFD
Durnovarianus wrote:
Yuletide might be a tad more acceptable to the traditionally-minded 
Durno said:
Yes, I have mentioned it, and it’s been quoted back several times. Your pardon is granted. As I have said, I would prefer that the public schools don’t deal with religious holidays at all. But I know that this is unrealistic, given today’s cultural climate. Therefore, if they must discuss any religious holidays, I want them to discuss as many as they can. So, yes, I would be just as opposed to a public school only teaching about Hanukkah as I am to one that just teaches about Christmas.
Yosemitebabe said:
Actually, I’m not dodging it nor is my lack of response odd (I know that sounds contradictory, but give me a minute). I had already said that I was not going to respond to Melin, who was the one pounding the table with that. I did not realize that you had also asked about it (in going back, I now see a message of yours from yesterday buried in amongst the arguments with between John John and various people about who is/is not a Jew. I apologize for missing it).
There is nothing to “admit.” Actually, there are several different issues here. Melin is trying to equate Halloween with Christmas just because Halloween has long-forgotten (by most people) religious roots. Sorry, but I’m not going to play her reindeer games. Halloween is quite different from Christmas. Yes, there are many symbols of Christmas (such as Santa) that are not part of the celebration of Christ’s birthday. But as others have pointed out, they are still part of Christmas, and Christmas is a Christian holiday. Who knows, maybe in 200 years it will be different. I can’t see the future, but I can see the present. As much as anybody protests, Christmas is still a Christian holiday. Halloween is a bunch of kids dressing up in costumes to get candy. Does it have other roots? Yes. Does anybody (with a very exceptions) recognize it anymore? No. Does anybody recognize the Christian roots of Christmas? Yes, very much so.
So, did I make an issue about Halloween at his school? No. There was no real issue to make. As you will remember, and as I restated in my message to Durno above, I would prefer that they not mention any holidays in a public school. This was the reason I pointed out that religious Jews may object to Halloween. Not because it bothers me, necessarily, but because it bothers others with different religious beliefs. I am not going to argue the First Amendment just because my beliefs are infringed on, but whenever anybody’s beliefs are. But back to what I was going to say. I would prefer they not mention any holidays, but with Halloween, there is no appropriate holiday to compare it to. And they didn’t do a Halloween program (for another example). They pasted a few pumpkins or something. But for their winter “Holiday” program, it was just a Christmas program under a politically correct name. And they only did Christmas-related projects. (Oh, and while some may understand that a lot of Christian symbolism stems from pagan times, that doesn’t mean they are any less religious to many Christians. The whole wreath/crown of thorns thing, for example.) Here I had a perfect opportunity to point out how they were handling the situation wrong, and I did so. I did not have such a situation for Halloween.
I trust I have answered your questions. If not, feel free to follow up. I apologize again for missing your previous post from yesterday. Like I said, I have no reason not to discuss this with reasonable people. I will only ignore the unreasonable ones as I have seen that attempts at “discussion” with them are fruitless.
david
Translation: I will only have one sided “discussions” with those with suspended credibility.
David, I thought you were going to be the paradigm of fairness. <sigh>
Y2K, BFD
Y’know, I’m trying to stay out of this, I swear I am, but I have to make a couple of minor points.
-
David, the issue appears to be that you believe that “secular” Christmas add-ons, for lack of a better term (such as trees, wreaths, Santas, candy canes, etc.), are not truly secular because they are associated with Christmas – a religious holiday. If I may point out, this goes all the way back to the discussion of “In God We Trust,” where you (and others) essentially asserted that no phrase dealing with trust in God could truly serve a secular purpose. The argument, if I understand it correctly, is that the religious basis for such things “taints” (for lack of a better word) everything springing therefrom. That’s your opinion and you’re welcome to it; but it’s hardly one that is universally held. Santa, trees, lights, presents, eating like a pig – none of these have anything to do with the religious celebration of Christmas. For this reason, many Christians actually reject it to a varying degree: from Christians who deplore the commercialism of Christmas in general terms to Christians who do not have trees or Santa because such “pagan” symbols are not in the “true” spirit of Christmas. It is my opinion that secular symbols springing from some source other than Christianity do not become spiritual or “Christian” merely because they have become associated with Christmas. (A wreath as a symbolic crown of thorns? Please.) The Christmas tree is no more a manifestation of the Christian religion – and has as little to do with religious Christmas – as the Easter bunny is a manifestation of the Christian religion having to do with the Resurrection.
-
You say:
Since the symbols in question are secular, and not religious, there is precious little basis for you to argue that your First Amendment right to Freedom of Religion is being infringed upon. Past experience with you leads me to think that you freely interpret the Consitution so that anything you personally disagree with becomes, in your mind, unconstitutional, but that hardly makes it so. The current legal thinking on this issue is pretty well expressed in the Supreme Court case cited above, which I assume you’ve read.
-
Declaring in advance that you will not answer the questions of certain posters because you have determined they are out to “win,” as opposed to “discuss,” seriously undermines your position for reasons that should be obvious. If you post to a message board and have a position you wish to defend, you ought to be willing to defend it to all challengers who approach you in a reasonably civil manner. Melin was reasonably civil until you declared that you were ignoring her. You surely understand that such a declaration (without provocation in this thread) might lead some readers to conclude that you really cannot defend your position. To refuse to entertain a legitimate question until it has been posited by a different, presumably acceptable poster is ridiculous.
-
Considering that you have, on more than one occasion in the past, accused me personally of ignoring you when I refused to agree that you were correct, I find the very idea of you arbitrarily declaring who you will respond to and who you will “ignore” to be supremely ironic. If what you really wanted was for your position only to be validated and praised by those who support you, maybe you should have started a “boo-hoo, isn’t this awful?” thread over in MPSIMS.
Oh, and Happy [Insert Holiday or Secular-Day Of Your Choice Here].
Jodi
Fiat Justitia
David, I am afraid your assertion that few people remember the religious origin of Halloween is a bit naive. Practicing Catholics still have a Holy Day of Obligation on Novemember 1, All Saints Day. This was known as All Hallow’s Day in England, thus All Hallow’s Eve, that became shortened to Hallowe’en. That plus the fact that many fundamentalist Christian sects object to the pagan aspects and refuse to participate in the celebration of Halloween. So your statement
seems a bit hypocritical.
I am an atheist. I sent my children to a private preschool, and public schools. They always did Hannukah art as well as Christmas art. I don’t recall any Kwaanza stuff. As I understand your post, your preschool did only Christmas things. I assume you are in an area that has very few Jews. But what would have happened if you or your wife volunteered to teach about Hannukah one day of class?
When I was growing up, we had Bible readings in class at Christmas time. Does this still go on? Probably so at the grade school I attended. But that is in a small southern town that is pretty homogenous Southern Baptist. If no one complains, and no one there would I am sure, then things don’t get changed. You admit in todays culture that it would be nearly impossible to stop all holiday related activities, so the question is how to get the preschool to introduce other non-Christian holiday things. It is a shame that your child feels left out, but it would also be a shame to deny the fun things to the others.
I am fairly new to this message board and do not post a lot. I would like to know what your criteria for sending someone to Coventry is. In this thread, I note that you will not respond to Melin, Majormd, and John John. You say that you will not talk to people that don’t listen to reason. From what I have seen in this thread, both Majormd and Melin have asked reasonable questions. To ignore them because you disagree with them seems childish to a newbie like me.
A hat with bells on is not funny, it is the jester underneath.
David, I understand more where you are coming from, thanks for the explanation. However, I have to kind of agree with Court Jester about Halloween. It does have religious connotations to many people. Also, the “witches” thing (using the witch image, even cartoonish during Halloween) definitely brings certain things religion-related to mind for many people.
Also, the holidays St. Patrick’s Day and St. Valentine’s day, must be, by the inclusion of “Saint” in their name, be obvious to all to have Christian roots. Several of us have asked you about those holidays also, and am curious to how you have dealt with them at this particular school.
From David B.:
OK, David. I forgot that, for whatever reason, you split your story into two posts. When I went back & checked the OP last night before writing my post to you, there was no mention there of any warning to you or your wife. I can see that neither of the two options offered is wholly satisfactory.
But - was ANY attempt made before the Christmas program to ask about including other non-Christmas material? Pre-schools operate on shoestring budgets. Could you have offered to bring in a pattern for a dreidel to cut out instead of Santa Claus hats? Asked the teacher if (s)he knew any songs about Chanukah that might have been appropriate for the kids to learn? Or it is just easier to criticize, rather than get involved?
Also, please cite whatever it is that you think is unreasonable in my posts here? Is my crime being a friend of Melin? Drawing a parallel between the feelings you expressed about Christmas, and those expressed by fundamentalist Christians with regards to Halloween (= holy evening - please explain how this could have anything BUT a religious origin)? Expressing disdain for immature ways of handling disagreement?
Your emotional response to the situation is understandable - protecting a child from a hurtful situation is instinctive. But I think that emotion has clouded your logic. If you honestly can’t see the similarity between your statement
and the idea that for 3 1/2 year olds, Christmas is about asking Santa for toys, then just keep on deluding yourself - you’re not convincing anyone else here.
Sue from El Paso
Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted.
On the St Pats/Valentine’s/Halloween issue: I went to Catholic school and church for more than half my life, and none of those holidays was ever celebrated as a religious holiday; i.e., we weren’t given any special reason to worship God on that day. This is an obvious contrast with the way Christmas and Easter are celebrated, and why I would not consider the three religious holidays, their origins notwithstanding.
Just my personal experience, YMMV.
Court Jester
Are you saying that I have not been reasonable or asked reasonable questions?
Y2K, BFD
Gee John, you got that right away, I guess you aren’t as dense as they say you are :).
Seriously, in this thread you got way off on a tangent as to who was or wasn’t a Jew. I don’t feel your questions on this thread have been as on topic as those of the others mentioned. Your questions, in and of themselves were not unreasonable, just not germaine to this thread.
Sue from El Paso
Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted.
majormd
I was led in that direction because someone brought up what I considered to be a ridiculous notion, that the term aethist-Jew was not mutally exclusive. I now see that I was wrong in that view, as relates to Jews, as opposed to Christians. I did not hyjack the thread topic but only responded to that as it related to the topic, I thought.
Anyway, sorry if I got tangential. I’ve taken too much of my Proventil inhaler and I’m now wide awake. terrific!
Y2K, BFD
Christmas-A Christian holiday with secular overtones. It is taught as a religious holiday in church, in some homes, and a lot of television specials. In most, but not all, schools it is celebrated as a secular holiday.
Halloween-A secular holiday with vague pagan origins. In a very small number of homes and almost no media outlets it is taught as a pagan holiday. In far too many Christian communities it is falsely thought to be Satanic in origin.
I can see the difference, can you?
I almost forgot.
John John, any comment on the George Bush claim about atheists?