sigh
One last time, Sue.(I’m beginning to see why Brother D won’t play anymore!) The objection is not to Christmas per se, it is to the unfairness of Christmas being promoted in some public schools as a religious observance without regard to the sensitivities of others. You know, if there wasn’t some religious signifigance to the celebration of Christmas, I really don’t think there would be any objection to my suggestion that we substitute some years with another culture or religion’s holiday. NOT a banishment, just equal time. Am I clear now?
I forgot to add a big thankyew to pldennison for the research. And the right-wing Christians think that they have it rough! 
I need a bit of clarification on a few points, David. ARE YOU THERE, DAVID? Your child is in preschool at 3 1/2 years old? Aren’t preschools in most cases private and not run by the State? It is my understudying that States do not have adequate funding for preschool programs.
Surely you fully realize that preschool is a place where toddlers cut, paste, color, draw, finger paint and try to hone skills of society with other children? It is not specifically for academic programs but is for children to acclimate to being away from Mommy and Daddy. I think you are adding a bit of stress to your child’s first introduction to the school environment. I also find it strange that you were totally unaware that these types of activities were going on at that school. What kind of research did you do? What did you understand teh preschool program to be ?Did they misstate their purpose? In that case you have a law suit.
In answer to pldennsion’s ridiculous claim of trying to tell Jewish people how THEY should worship, I will remind, it seems to be the other way around, people are telling Christians what they can and cannot celebrate. Yes, I do think that Hanukkah is not as important on the Jewish Calendar as Christmas is on the Christian calendar. How you get to your conclusions of what I said, only Merlin knows.
Y2K, BFD
Gaudere, I’ll assume that he actually said that, although I might question his intent. Did he not say I don’t know if they are, either way, patriots or citizens ? I would agree that it did not sound smart and might lead me to think you were correct.
Atheist are as fine a person as the rest of us.
Y2K, BFD
Slythe
We can only guess why David B will not join in and clarify his point. My impression is that he is not getting the type of answers he wants and does not want to defend his shaky point. Again, this is pre school were kids color and paste all things of THAT SEASON they are in class. This is not High School.
Also, he was told what the program was and given an opportunityv to keep his child home. THIS IS PRES SCHOOL, FOLKS.
Y2K, BFD
Wow, did this thread grow over the weekend! Friday afternnon, Melin asked me
Great question. I regard Halloween, St. Valentines’s Day, and (added by someone else) St. Patrick’s Day, as primarily Christian holidays, and I try to avoid participating in them, to whatever extent I can. That means, for example, that I do wish my friends and neighbors a Merry Christmas and such, but I have no Halloween decorations at all on my home, and I reluctantly give a quarter or so to each child who comes to my door. (I say “reluctantly”, because it does constitute participation in a religion other than my own, but I also recognize the need to stay on good terms with my neighbors.)
Thanksgiving is a different story. I know some people who avoid celebrating it because they consider it Christian, but my feeling is that it is a non specifically Christian, but common to all Americans who believe in a Supreme Being to who we owe thanks for the good of this country. This would certainly exclude atheists, and I suppose Native Americans, and maybe other groups as well, and for that reason, I honestly don’t know what my opinion is (or should be) about Thanksgiving observances in public schools. But for myself, I have no problem with it.
Gaudere, thanks for finding and reposting my explanation of Jewish Identity in your 12-19-1999 07:52 PM post. I wanted to post it myself, but I got a headache in anticipation of trying to use the search engine to find it. Is it working now? How did you find that piece?
I didn’t even bother to try the search engine. I just have a pretty good memory for what has been posted in the threads I follow, and the approximate date.
Well, this certainly has gone on a bit while I was out of the loop.
To those who are so concerned with my whereabouts: I have out-of-town guests who came Friday night (and won’t be leaving for a few more days). Besides the fact that I have to (obviously) spend time with these guests, the guest room in my house is also the computer room. So while I would normally pop down there for a few minutes in the early morning or late night, for example, it’s hard to do that when the guests are sleeping there. Or, at least, it’s hard to do it and not wake them up since I type fairly loudly.
But in looking at the thread, I see that Brother Slythe has been doing an admirable job. In one message, he noted:
Indeed, that was part of it. That and the fact that Christmas is the most-discussed aspect of this particular discussion. (For example, many Jews call it “The December Dilemma” – you don’t often hear about “The February Dilemma” or “The October Dilemma.”)
As far as ignoring Melin, well, guess what? I’m ignoring Melin! I saw in the previous thread, and then again here, that she is acting like the stereotypical lawyer and seems more interested in “winning” that discussing the issue. Heck, she even brought in her pal Sue for backup to have somebody else chanting, “David answer the question.” I tried to discuss the issue with her earlier and it ended up badly on both sides (as some of you may recall, she told me to take the corncob out of my ass and I told her I would do so when she took her head out of hers). Obviously, nothing was gained in doing this. Since she is so intent on declaring victory over me, she may do so if she chooses – the folks reading this thread can make up their own minds. I will not, however, be drawn back into a pointless argument with her. I have made my points numerous times in these two threads, and got tired of repeating myself. I thank Slythe for having more patience than I (of course, he wasn’t involved as much in the earlier stages, so he saved some of his stamina ).
I’ll still discuss the issue with others who might genuinely be interested, but will not respond to Melin on this issue – and with history as a guide, perhaps not on others as well. Time will tell.
(By the way, to those who are reading this and planning to respond and call it a “cop-out” or whatever else – it is no such thing. My reasons are exactly as I have explained them above. If you respond in that vein, do not expect a response back from me. That is not admitting you are right by my silence, but rather you may consider it pointing back to this message again. Like I said, I’ve grown tired of repeating myself.)
Oh, shoot. Two addendums.
One: Where I quoted Slythe above, I should point out that I did say previously that the schools should not teach about any of the religious holidays, or all of them.
Two: I was also going to point out that many religious Jews do get rather peeved with Valentine’s Day and Halloween, but then Keeves went and pointed that out himself.
slythe said:
sigh indeed.
OK. Maybe we’re going around in circles here, but I’ll try to explain it again.
David had an issue with the school’s emphasis on the Christmas holiday. The school emphasized Christmas by having the students create various art projects, to wit:
He also mentioned that the school presented a musical program where:
Unless the ornament project focused on one of the religious aspects of Christmas, i.e., a nativity scene, an angel, etc., or the music program included songs such as Silent Night or Away In A Manger, I fail to see how this school promoted Christmas as a religious observance.
Look. If the school was truly promoting Christmas as a religious observance by reading the Christmas story from the Gospel of Luke, or by singing religous songs, or by presenting a “Mary and Joseph go to Bethlehem” pageant, then I would be right there beside you demanding an end to this inappropriate behavior. But that wasn’t the case here. And I doubt it’s the case in most public schools these days either.
Just curious–since Jehovah’s Witnesses do not celebrate birthdays or pledge allegiance should an mention of that be prohibited in public schools? Also, since evolution is offensive to many fundamentalist Christians should mention of that be prohibited in public schools?
Same principle to me–the minority feels their rights are abridged and their religious freedom attacked.
I’d go for no religious mention of Christmas origins. Teaching evolution. Being more sensitive to kids with different backgrounds–maybe asking parents if they want their child in a special pull-out class where they won’t have to be exposed to the offensive material. Their art class could draw pictures of birds or trees or whatever. They could make funny hats instead of santa hats. Something that is equivalent and FUN and educational as well–that makes them feel happy AND lets the rest of kids enjoy their cultural heritage. (As a Christian, I surely do NOT feel that Santa is a Christian symbol, sorry!)
I got my kid out of the DARE program by just asking. Most teachers want to be kind. Most principals will work with you. Sometimes you’re just unaware of what other people’s culture is.
David, would you please answer my questions?
Y2K, BFD
Kepi
Kepi, it might be a good idea for David, who is bright enough, to explain his own position. Since we are dealing with how he feels, you might misstate his position in error.
Y2K, BFD
David,
The issue you originally raise is your emotional concern for your son, and your son’s hurt feelings over the exclusion he felt during the holiday preparations that were the center of his classmates’ attention. I have been thinking about that for several days, now. I am less interested in the Constitutionality discussion, as I am relatively sure that is not the source of your son’s hurt feelings, and that is the issue that I find more troubling.
Your son is a member of a minority. The particular minority of which he is a member is one you chose, and he has inherited. At some point in the future, he will decide on his own, but as of now, it is not much under his control. The majority is much involved in the “Feast of Conspicuous Consumption” at this time of the year. The gamesmanship of whether this feast is religious or not is really outside of the area of consideration for a three and a half-year-old. His friends are celebrating, and he is not. That matters a whole lot more to a child than the dueling philosophies attendant to the discussion.
The majority of your son’s associates in his next few decades are very likely to be much the same as they are now. School may well avoid the merest mention of religion when he goes to public school. He will still have the isolation of minority religious affiliation to deal with. I don’t deny that many who call themselves Christians will be far less than kind and loving in their reactions to his particular set of beliefs. That is not what their religion teaches, but it is a fact that many do so. Some of those Christian children will be joyful and effusive about their celebrations at Christmas, and Easter. The nature of children makes it inevitable that they will, and your son will feel isolated, and left out. Looking for the bad guys (or even finding them) is not going to make that different.
I doubt that religious advice from a Christian to an Atheist is something that has a great future, but I feel it would be hardhearted, and mean of me not to reach out to find some answer for you, and your son. Since everyone is at least claiming that what they are celebrating is the birth of my Savior, it would be very disrespectful to Him to ignore the hurt that has been done here. So, I offer this as a plan, for you, and your son. Speak with him, about your beliefs, and explain that you are in the minority. Tell him that you understand how much it hurts to be left out. Then plan some celebration of your own love for him, and your family, and everyone you love. Plan it as a demonstration that you have love to share in your life too. Celebrate it every year, on a day that you find most likely to nurture your love for each other. Make it as important as you feel your love warrants, and as inclusive of the world at large as you find reasonable for your own philosophy. When Christmas comes, you and your family can celebrate your own holiday, and he will have that to hold on to, in the face of his feelings of exclusion.
Love is always part of the answer.
<P ALIGN=“CENTER”>Tris</P>
Love is the strongest force the world possesses, and yet it is the humblest imaginable.
–** Mohandas Gandhi**
I still want to know what the fuck prompted this one:
You want to tell us why you “strongly suspect” that David is not an atheist, Johnny? Are you sooooooo terrified that someone might believe something different from what you believe that you have to impugn the sincerity of their beliefs? I personally think Christianity is foolishness, but I certainly don’t doubt that RTF, Tris, Lib, and others sincerely believe what they say they believe.
In short, just where the fuck do you get off telling others they don’t believe what they say they do, huh?
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
::longtime lurker steps gingerly into the fray::
David, I’m confused. I thought you were an atheist; are you in fact a religious Jew? Is it the Christian Christmas that you object to, or is it any mention of religion in the schools?
Count me in as one of the people who’d like to hear your answer to the question that Melin asked. Are YOU one of the “religious Jews” that you mentioned who have a problem with Halloween and Valentine’s Day? Do you let your son participate in those?
Goldie
pldennsion
You probably missed it Dennsion, you do miss a lot, but that is exactly what a few posters have tried to do to me, tell me what I think, what I meant etc. Please pay attention.
You also must have missed kepi telling us what David thought, meant and said. You did see that , didn’t you?
Finally, I asked that question of David, not you. You must have missed that too, huh.
Obviously YOU are doing to ME what YOU accuse ME of doing. But, hey, you probably missed that too, huh? DUH!
Y2K, BFD
What has Melin done that she is ignored and then attacked by you, David?
Y2K, BFD
David B…
Would you please clarify this revealing statement, David? I asked this question before but I do not see it on the board.
Y2K, BFD