John John, I agree with Phil that it was offensive to say that you did not think David was “really” an atheist. It would be equally offensive were I to tell Tris or Polycarp or Libertarian that I strongly suspected they weren’t really Christian because they did not fit into my falsely preconceived notions of what a Christain was.
Sorry, Gaudere, but I have a problem beleiving in the term Jewish Atheist. That’s like saying Christian atheist. It is a contradiction in terms.
Noticed that you didn’t get too exercised when people were telling me what I thought and meant. Huh?
Y2K, BFD
If someone tried to tell you that you were not a Christian, I would have objected. It is particuarly offensive to tell someone that they are lying or false in their beliefs with little proof. Generally what I see in this thread is misunderstanding and exaggeration, not telling someone they are (basically) a liar in their statements of what they believe.
You are wrong that Jew and atheist is a complete contradiction in terms; ask any Jew. I do not fault you for not being aware of this, but you should not insist that you are correct about the way a Jew is defined, and that Jews themselves are wrong.
John John, please reread Gaudere’s post of 12-19-1999 07:52 PM, which is located near the top of this page. If there is anything there that you don’t understand, or disagree with, please open a new thread, and we can discuss it there.
correction:
John John, please reread Gaudere’s post of 12-19-1999 07:52 PM, which is located near the top of this page. If there is anything there that you don’t understand, or disagree with, please open a new thread, and specify what it is that you don’'t understand or that you disagree with, and we can discuss it there.
Goldie said:
I am an agnostic with atheist leanings. I am also Jewish. (Yes, I know John John apparently can’t understand this, but he is definitely in the “ignore” category since he shows even less interest in having an actual discussion than anybody else here and, in fact, ignored several of my direct questions to him earlier, even when repeated. So for him to whine now that I’m ignoring his questions is quite hypocritical, but I suspect that’s the least of his personal problems. Alas, I digress.)
As I have repeatedly stated here and elsewhere (hence my notes about getting tired of repeating myself), I would prefer that they not mention any of them, but I know that I have 0% chance of winning that battle. So I have to look at an alternative. With this preference in mind, I won’t object to teaching about different religious beliefs – as long as they actually do cover different beliefs (in other words, just teaching about and only mentioning Christian holidays doesn’t cut it).
Tris, thank you for your kind message.
Yes, I realize that my sons will always be in the minority. Frankly, this is something that I did not have to face as much as they will (presuming I stay where I’m living now) because I was raised Jewish in a community with a fairly large Jewish population. Yes, Jews were still a minority, but a recognized one (for example, of the top 1% of my graduating high school class, half were Jewish). I remember, as a child, going around the neighborhood to sell Passover candy as a fundraiser. Nobody looked at us strangely; yet I’m quite certain that would be the frequent reaction if Jewish children around here tried to do the same thing. And to be a Jew who is also an agnostic/atheist – Oy! 
I know all of these things. One of my major hobbies is that, as many people here know, I am the chairman of a local “skeptics” group. While we maintain a definite stance of not dealing with issues of pure faith, we still find many people who would, in the words of a friend of mine, prefer a warm lie to the cold truth. People don’t like it when you don’t believe the same things they believe. They like it even less when you point out the flaws in what they believe (this goes more towards the skeptics group than my own personal agnostic views). So I will always be considered “other” by many. So will my children. Like I said, I understand this.
That does not mean I will allow public schools to support or enhance this position. One reason that I frequently refer to Jewish positions is that I know many Jewish people and am aware of their thoughts on the issue. Another is that they are the most obvious, especially with people idiotically referring to “Judeo-Christian culture” when they really mean “Christians.” So, in partial answer to Goldie’s question (which I forgot to add to my response, above), the reason I mentioned that religious Jews may oppose Valentine’s Day and Halloween is because I know of this opposition and I think they have a valid point – depending on how it is taught. As I said, I would prefer that they teach none of these holidays, but if they must, I want them to teach about holidays of various religions. The problem is that, all too often, teachers are unable to teach about something like religion without interjecting their own personal views.
Looking at what I’ve typed, I think I’ve rambled on a bit – kind of stream of consciousness writing here. I had several different things I wanted to point out, and I think they’re all there.
Gaudere and Keeves, see, the thing with John is, he will never accept that you can be a Jew and be an atheist, because Jews are only allowed to be what John says they are allowed to be. He knows the Jews better than they know themselves, so no answer which allows for someone to be both will be acceptable to him.
No, John, I’m not questioning the fact that you believe what you believe. I’m telling you quite succinctly that what you believe is incorrect.
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
Gaudere
Well, let me see, how can I phrase this? God supposedly had a “special covenant” with the Jews. If there is no God, there is not covenant. If you do not believe in God, who Jews believe inspired the Old testament, then all the things in the OT are not true. No,God, no Jewish connection to the covenant. As I said, it is a contradiction in terms.
I find it hypocritical that David will only respond to “pitty pat” question and avoids the tough ones. If you only answer the questions you like, is that an open, honest discussion?
Y2K, BFD
Regarding the Christian imagery of the holly wreath:
It’s supposed to symbolize the crown of thorns worn by Jesus during his crucifixion. The spiny holly leaves are the thorns, and the red berries are Jesus’ blood.
Obviously, this is a “retcon” – wreaths were used long before Christianity came along, and the Christians merely usurped the symbol and ascribed a religious significance to it. But then again, crosses had symbolic significance before the Christians stubled onto the scene, too (they symbolized death).
See? Jews are only allowed to be what John says they are allowed to be. Jews are not allowed to define what Jews are; only John is allowed to define what Jews are. He doesn’t understand that it’s as much a culture as it is a religion.
No answer will be good enough for him. He will never, never understand the correct answer, no matter how many times you repeat it.
Many of us have been down this road before with John. Keeves, Gaudere, I beg of you, if you don’t think of yourselves, think of your children or loved ones before you toss yourselves on this grenade.
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
pldennison
It is a contradiction in terms. Judaism is a God based belief system, a religion, and if you do not believe in that religion you can not call yourself a member of that religion. What part has you confused?
Y2K, BFD
pldennison
Puh leeeeeeeeze, what a drama queen.
Y2K, BFD
The part that observes not only is half of my own family Jewish, but David is Jewish, and Keeves is Jewish, and Kyla is Jewish, and we all understand apostate Judaism, or atheistic Judaism; but you, who is an Irish Christian, is going to sit here and tell us we’re all incorrect.
Let me think . . . who might have the actual answer to the question? Actual Jews? Or some doofus? I think I’ll go with “actual Jews” on this one, and I’ll bet it all, Alex.
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
David, wasn’t this a private pre-school? What State do you live in? That’s kind of general question.
Y2K, BFD
I know people are predisposed to believe pldennison anyway, what with him being an honest person and all, but this statement is important and bears repeating. A quick peek at the eight pages of 6 Billion? should convince the skeptical. It’s too late for tracer, dhanson and Akatsukami, and it’s probably too late for this thread, too. But perhaps you can save yourselves.
Livin’ on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine
Again, Dennison doodles, if you do not believe in God, then you are not Jewish. it is a contradiction in terms. We are NOT talking agnosticism or apostateism but ATHEISM. HELLOOOOOOOO? Still confused??
Oh, I’m sorry, Dennison, you won’t be around for Final Jepordy. We have some wonderful parting gifts for you. byeeee
Y2K, BFD
It took me 8 pages but I was finally able to show, Bowery Manhattan how bad it would be for the planet if we keep reproducing with no regard to the environment.
kindly stay on topic in this thread.
Y2K, BFD
I will admit that there is a certain amount of logic to this, and because of that, you consider it a contradiction for a person to both not believe in God, and also consider himself Jewish. However, consider this:
(1) The Jews are a group which has existed as a group for several thousand years. That is a fact which is true whether God exists or not.
(2) During that time, the Jews have developed rules for determining who is a Jew, including rules by which a non-Jew can become a Jew. This fact is true in a general sense, despite various disagreements about the details of those rules. This fact also remains true, despite the lack of any central governing body charged with enforcing those rules. I base this on the general consensus among the Jews regarding those rules.
(3) Like any organization which has membership rules – such as whether one is a member of the Boy Scouts, or a citizen of the USA – it is the organization which determines the rules, not the individual. A person can claim to be (or not be) a US citizen, but it’s pretty meaningless unless the goverment agrees. (This is notwithstanding the existence of various individuals who have arguable status. Rules are subject to interpretation in any organization.)
It is therefore entirely reasonable for a person to not beleive in God, yet still consider himself a part of the Jewish people.
Sorry, John, but as someone who grew up around Jews and knows a lot more Jews than you do, I can assure you that you are the last person on Earth whose opinion I would solicit as to what is and isn’t correct with regards to Judaism.
The difference between you and me here is that I actually know the answer to the question, whereas you are simply making yourself look stupider and stupider.
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather