Any votes to change this thread’s title to (John John’s) Deliberate Ignorance?
“…Pater accipe,
Sancte accipe
Thuricremos leones,
Per quos thuradamus,
Per quos consumimur
Ipsi, O Meithra!..” Happy Mithrasmas, all!
posted 12-20-1999 03:10 PM
quote:
If there is no God, there is not covenant. If you do not believe in God, who Jews believe inspired the Old testament, then all the things in the OT are not true. No,God, no Jewish connection to the covenant. As I said, it is a contradiction in terms.
Keeves
Thank you Keeves for at least seeing my suggestion as logical.
Let me explain a point to you and David.[David, don’t be timid, jump in anytime] YOU, nor HE, get to determine who is part of that organization, the organization does. You join a club and then YOU dictate what constitutes membership? I don’t think so. All religious Jew would say you blaspheme
A belief in God is central, the sine qua non, in the definition of who is a Jew.
You might want to start a new thread with this as a topic.
Y2K, BFD
Let me paraphrase this to make sure I understand what you are saying. IF I read this correctly, you are saying that
If I messed up something there, please point it out to me so I can correct it. But if this accuartely reflects John John’s views, then the burden is now on John John to give us a source in authoritative Jewish writings to back up his contention that a person who was born Jewish loses his Jewishness upon becoming an atheist.
Let me rephrase that last paragraph:
If I messed up something there, please point it out to me so I can correct it. But if this accuartely reflects John John’s views, then the burden is now on John John to give us a source in authoritative Jewish writings to back up his contention that “All religious Jews would say you blaspheme. A belief in God is central, the sine qua non, in the definition of who is a Jew.”
There is a recognizable distinction between being a religious Jew and being an ethnic Jew, which is something I think that John John is not appreciating here. Life might have been simpler if the common terms were Jewish and Hebrew, similar to terms such as Catholic and Irish. Then we would have a clear distinction between the faith identifier and the cultural identifier.
But this discussion is ironic as hell in this context! Several pages ago the statement was made that because non-Christians associate certain symbols associated with this holiday season as being Christian and religious, it didn’t matter that the Christians were loudly saying “nope – that has no meaning in the religious aspect of Christmas.”
You rightly complain that this non-Jewish person is trying to dictate what is Jewish to Jews. Please, non-Christians, don’t try to dictate to Christians what is and is not Christian about Christmas.
-Melin
David, my head is reeling from all the flurry of posts here in the last several hours. I think I understood your feeling about the other Holidays (Halloween, St. Patrick’s Day, etc.) That you would prefer none of them be observed in a public school, but rather equal time is given to educating kids on all manner of religious holidays, from different religions, if the holidays must be discussed. I hope I got all that right in my summary!
So I am curious now - during Halloween, what did the school do (cut out pumpkin pictures, have kids in costume) and did you allow your son to participate? If yes, why? If no, how did you get him not to participate? Same goes for St. Patrick’s Day, St. Valentine’s Day, etc. Have you dealt with the school at all about their festivites during these other holidays, or do you allow your son to participate? Maybe you have answered these questions and I missed them, if so, I apologize.
keeves
I don’t think you messed it up. You are close.
OK, let me give you an example, to be a member of Mensa you have to have an IQ of 150 or better. If your IQ is 89, then just because a person would LIKE to be a member does not make them one. It doesn’t matter if you have a Mensa tee shirt or Mensa pencil, you need to have the requiste IQ grade.
religious Jews do not accept atheist as members of Abraham.
Was that clearer?
Y2K, BFD
If the Sandedrin were still around, do you think they would count atheists as part of thier flock. I don’t think so.
If we are to believe David, a more precise description of him would be an American atheist. Would you agree? David, you can respond if you like. I won’t bite you.
Y2K, BFD
Bullshit, John.
According to 5,000 years of tradition, ANYONE born to a Jewish mother is a Jew, whether they believe or not. THAT is Jewish law, regardless of the fact that attempting to understand the idea makes your brain hurt so you simply assert otherwise.
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
melin
That sounds fair to me.
Y2K, BFD
Yes, that was just as clear as what you said before. The part I don’t get is: Where did you get the idea that
I and all the other Jews here understand that a person is a Jew if he/she was born into Judaism, or converted to Judaism, and that once a person is a Jew, she/he remains a Jew regardless of subsequent actions and/or beliefs. This is what we were taught, and if you’d like, I can cite you specific Jewish texts in order to demonstrate that this is not something which we have decided on our own, but rather this this is authentic Jewish tradition.
In contrast, John John, you seem to be the one with a new definition. You are the one who thinks that you lose your MENSA membership simply by not wearing the shirt.
I’m leaving for the day now. See y’all tomorrow morning.
How do I make the transition from a secular Christmas to a spiritual Hanukkah?
by Rabbi Bradley Shavit Artson
Dear Rabbi,
I have just recently embraced Judaism after years of Secular/Pagan life. I am learning all the things that my mother didn’t teach me, and I have a problem I really haven’t seen addressed here. I have three children, ages 7, 15 and 18. How does one make the transition from a secular Christmas to a spiritual Hanukkah? The 18-year-old is not a
problem, but the other two, who are my nieces and have lived with me for four years, are going to find it a bumpy road. And yet, my heart and concience says that for me to celebrate Christmas now would be a fraud. This is a BIG transition. Any advice?
Julie (from Hanukkah discussion group on Jewishfamily.com)
Dear Julie,
“Kol hat’khalot kashot, all beginnings are difficult” says Rashi, a great medieval rabbi. Transitioning from a secular life into one of piety and faith is a challenge for the best of families, and for most of us it is close to overwhelming. Fortunately, the rewards outweigh the difficulties. So let me begin by encouraging you to persevere. Judaism is a magnificent philosophy and way of life, infused with holiness and beauty. Keep on the path!
As for your children, I would recommend a dual approach. You need to level with your children about WHY it is no longer appropriate to celebrate Christmas. Then I would boost Hanukkah in any way you can: blue and white lights, lots of gifts, beautiful hanukkiyot (Hanukkah menorahs), songs, family gatherings, the whole nine yards. As you fill your year with Jewish festivals and holy days (starting with Shabbat each week, and including Rosh Hashanah, Sukkot, Purim, Passover and all the rest), you will find that your life is so rich with celebrations that you don’t need a non-Jewish one in December.
I hope this helps. Best wishes for a Shanah Tovah, Happy New Year,[ No Happy Holiday wish here]
God Bless,
Rabbi Artson
David, do you have a problem that Christmas has ascendancy?
Y2K, BFD
A change in travel plans has allowed me to do a few more posts before I go back to Texas.
Boy, am I glad I didn’t miss this!
Hey, John, if a Jew cannot become an atheist (as you and only you claim), can a person who was not born Jewish become a Jew?
In other words, was Sammy Davis Jr. a Jew or was he deluded?
And how about the K’ai-feng Jews? That’s right, Chinese Jews. If you’ve never heard of them, read this: www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/9/0,5716,45359+1,00.html Apparently, the first European to hear of them was Matteo Ricci, who wrote about them in 1605. A Jesuit missionary visited them in 1608 and reported that they conducted all the rituals, practiced circumcision, refused to eat pork and read and prayed in Hebrew. They may have first learned of the Jewish faith from Jewish travelers as early as 1127 AD. They built their own synagogue which, unfortunately, had to be dismatled and sold for cash when the community went through some bad times in the 19th Century. As far as I can tell from the article, there are no K’ai-feng Jews left. It wasn’t the Communist Revolution that did this, for they seem to have died out in the early 1900’s, forty years beforehand.
If a person can choose to believe in the Jewish faith, can’t a person decide NOT to believe in it?
>< DARWIN >
__L___L
SIMULPOST!
>< DARWIN >
__L___L
Jab1
If he/she believes in God. A better question, Jab, can a person convert to Judaism if they do not believe in God? Huh?
Y2K, BFD
John-John, do you understand that Brother D has a Jewish background, was raised in a Jewish community, was born of a Jewish mother, and thus is part of the Jewish culture? He was raised to have a Jewish outlook on life and living, and this does not change if he changes just one aspect of his life. He is not Jewish merely because he believes in the same religion as other Jews.
Melin, do you have any objection to trading off religious holidays each year to show students how to get along with other cultures?
Oh, and BTW, not all pre-schools are private. Head Start comes to mind, and I am sure that other examples will spring up.
Slythe, I’ve never voiced an objection to that at all. David is the one who did. My kids, at their public school (not to mention at home!), have learned and experienced many and different holidays from many religions and cultures. We find reason to honor all those that come to us, as I have said elsewhere.
One of the benefits of living in Southern California is the diversity of culture and belief that exists here. My kids can tell you what the letters on the dreidels stand for, and what the miracle is that happened there. (They can also tell you the story behind Passover and Purim, for that matter.) They (obviously) understand the Nativity aspect to this season; they also know about the solstice and the pagan influences here and at Samhain/Halloween (as well as the other major pagan holidays). They can tell you what the candles at Kwanzaa stand for, and what the Indian (Asian) holiday that comes at this time is (Dewali?). Indeed, Youngest Son last year was invited to a friend’s home to celebrate Dewali, or some aspect of it.
Holidays give meaning to culture. Celebration is one of the most positive aspects of human existence, and many people’s most fond memories come from the celebrations they participate in. My kids are taught to respect the beliefs of others, and to appreciate and enjoy the celebrations that bring others pleasure.
Now, what did I NOT say here? As I said much earlier in this thread, if David’s kid had been made to participate in a dramatization of the Nativity story, I’d’ve been right there with him complaining. And if my kids, in learning about and participating in some other religion’s holidays were being indoctrinated in that religion’s doctrine (wow, THERE’s a sentence! ;)), I would have concerns.
I’m working really hard here to raise kids that are tolerant of others. My kids are as color-blind as I can make them, and they are taught to respect and honor other’s customs and beliefs, even if they are different from our own. One of the ways, IMHO, to do that is to make sure that they understand that even though there are differences amongst peoples, there are commonalities as well. The reason we celebrate holidays, and the holidays we celebrate, may differ among groups, but the fact of celebration, and perhaps even the underlying motivations for celebrating, are common across groups, and it’s important to understand that.
I think it makes for greater understanding and acceptance, not less, to begin to understand, for example, that from time out of mind, across the world, people have celebrated the return of the light at this time of year. Parents rarely have the resources or knowledge to give their children that breadth of information; I think the schools are a great place to get it, where the kids can begin to appreciate and accept the differences AND THE SIMILARITIES amongst themselves.
Damn, now I’m the one rambling. The short answer: no Slythe, wouldn’t – and doesn’t – bother me at all.
-Melin
Not that it will do any good, but what the heck. Here you go, JJ. From Judaism 101 :
-bolding added.
Livin’ on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine
Okay, this REALLY IS my last post for the year 2000. A person can be:
-
Jewish and believe the Jewish faith.
-
Jewish and believe a different faith.
-
Jewish and atheist (or agnostic).
Why?
When it is said a person is born Jewish, it means his/her ETHNIC background. Religious beliefs (if any) come later. They are acquired, not inherent.
I think John’s confusion stems solely from the fact that “Jewish” can mean either ethnicity OR a type of religious belief. And they are exclusive, meaning a person can be one and not the other.
And you still didn’t tell me if you think Sammy Davis Jr. was really Jewish or not. And since I’m leaving now, I’ll probably never know. Just tell everyone else here, okay?
And no, John, if a person converts to Judaism, that person is no longer an atheist.
And I’m outta here!
>< DARWIN >
__L___L
You’re the one not getting it, Slythe. Please cite exactly how singing Frosty the Snowman, and cutting out red construction paper Santa hats, and coloring wreathes is “promoting Christmas as a religious observance without regard to the sensitivities of others.”
Christmas, as observed in American culture, is THE major holiday on the calendar. As practiced on Main Street, it is somewhere between 80 & 90% non-religious. Candy canes, gingerbread men, brightly blinking lights, stockings, boughs of holly, fruitcake, and jingle bells have about as much to do with the birth of Christ as clay dreidels, latke, and silver & blue wrapping paper do with commemorating a miracle allowing a small amount of oil to last as long as it was needed.
Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, Epiphany, and Pentecost are all examples of (almost) purely religious holidays. You really don’t hear about them in public schools, except that in school districts with a large Jewish population, teacher training days often fall during Jewish holy days in order to allow students to take time off without disrupting their studies. That is as it should be.
That Christmas is emphasized in schools over other holidays is a reflection of 2 things:
- That the overwhelming majority of Americans do celebrate Christmas
- That other holidays do not offer the wealth and variety of non-religious features (the only features really appropriate for a public school) that Christmas does, or do not coincide with Christmas regularly, or have only been celebrated for 30-35 years vs. hundreds/thousands of years.
Perhaps a fairer way of looking at this than comsidering the large “Christian” majority as a homogenous uniform entity (which it is not), would be to consider giving equal time to “winter” traditions from Ireland, France, England, Norway, Germany, Poland, the Netherlands, Russia, India, African tribes, Native American tribes, and other countries/regions of origin in proportion to the ethnic background of the students, with mentions of different religious observances which cross many borders.
But saying that if there are 4 (5 this year) December holidays to choose from that rotating them every 4 or 5 years is equal representaion is like saying that Texas & New Mexico should have equal weight in electing a President. This is not equal time.
Sue from El Paso
Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted.