If I were Jewish I probably wouldn’t care at all for making Hanukkah resemble Christmas. In fact it seems kind of silly to adopt Christian celebratory practices, such as a Hanukkah bush, to celebrate a holiday that is about the preservation of Jewish identity in the face of adversity. It doesn’t seem realistic to expect everyone to celebrate Christmas.
Marc
Borealist!
If the holiday that celebrates the birth of Jesus Christ isn’t a Christian holiday, what is?
For non Orthodox Christians the 25th of December is Celebrated as the Birth Day of Jesus, the rest of the days between Thanksgiving and New years day Is celebrated by many different belivers and non believers, The Othodox celebrate in January. So yes, the 25th is a Christian holiday,but the other days are not. I cannot understand why some people are so intimidated by the fact that not every one shares their belief. The only one who can take the holiday from them is the believer(if the believer really believes). There was several hundred years before Christmas was celebrated by Christians and they seemed to do just fine.
Monavis
It’s a pagan tradition. And by now it should be easy enough to strip away any pagan religious meaning and be left with something secular. Just like with Halloween.
It’s just a word. Space did not permit me to raise the issue of weather the Holiday should be renamed or “Christmas” should be redefined.
“Like it or not” it bloody well ain’t. I wasn’t at the beginning and it isn’t now. It’s just as easy to rationalize not ruining the holidays, so what gives?
And what do we call people who hate things that are nice and fun and lovely?
Hallow-frickin-ween! The Fourth of fricken July!
You speak English, don’t you? You use the Roman alphabet, don’t you?
Anyway, for a much longer, rambling commentary on political correctness, holidays, SOCAS, etc, see here:http://www.squeakywheelsblog.com/culture
On a random note, I remember reading somewhere that coal in a stocking was at some point a way to show someone that you cared enough for them not to let them freeze to death in the winter, but that they were enough of a jerk not to warrant anything fancy.
Also, to hijack my hijack, my mom once gave me a lump of coal, wrapped in tissue paper, inside a festive red tin labeled “Lump O’ Coal” as a joke. I thought it was pretty danged funny. 
And fried chicken and nookie. Never forget the fried chicken and nookie.
Still haven’t heard from any of Bill O’Reilly’s Christmas Commandos. The right’s War on Christmas issue seems to have tailed off a little bit this year since they declared “Mission Accomplished”.
Christmas nookies? With frosting and sprinkles? Leave some out for Santa-san. 
I can’t help but think of this thread.
I think the point is, sqweels, not everyone even wants to celebrate Christmas. Yes, they can if they want to, but even if they feel left out, that doesn’t mean they automatically should break out the trees and the lights.
Trying to come up with things like a “Hanukkah bush”, or an “atheist tree” or whatever kind of misses the point.
Why not just let people be? If they’re not celebrating, don’t go up and say, “Well, you can if you want too!” Don’t you think they know that already?
The “War On Christmas” is a work of inflammatory fiction, and it does not exist outside of the FoxNews network. It is primarily fomented by O’Reilly and Gibson, though Hannity and Ailes occasionally join in. Every one of the “examples” of anti-Christmas actions were either complete fabrications or shameless distortions of the facts. All across America, everyone except the government is free to join in any kind of religious expression.
The churches stay out of the government business, and the government stays out of the religion business. It has been that way since before your grandpa was born. There is nothing new about the First Amendment, no matter what O’Reilly says.
No, they don’t. They think there’s a rule that says they can’t (or a rule that says they can’t want to). And they prohibit their kids from participating.
The underlying theme of Christmas is “Peace on Earth, Good Will Towards All”, remember? And yet people on both sides use the occasion to divide us. Conservatives pit “traditional Americans” against
What I’m trying to do is dismantle the idea that it’s strictly a Christian holiday in order to free the spirit from its sectarian shackles.
A lovely sentiment, but I don’t think it can be forced by direct action. Criticizing the friction between the actively christian and the actively non-christian reactions to Christmas is unlikely to do more than attract attention from the vehement on both sides, thus bringing more participants to the “war”, in my humble opinion. The people who are inclined to live and let live probably already know how to do so.
Better to just sit and wait until the secularization happens naturally, like it has mostly done with All Hallows Eve. It probably won’t happen in our lifetime, but it assuredly will happen someday. (It’s already over halfway there, in my estimation, in the city I live in.)
Well there you go. I am just trying to nudge along and help explain a cultural evolution that’s already underway.
Let me revisit my sports metaphor for a minute:
Now I’m not all that interested in sports, but there’s something to be said for the spirit of unity and community that the local sports team can bring.
Now suppose you love football, grew up in Texas and, are a big fan of the Dallas Cowboys, but later moved to Wisconsin. Not only do you refuse to watch or have anything to do with the Green Bay Packers even though they’re in the Superbowl, but you won’t let your kids watch the game or go to any parties either.
That’s kind of unreasonable.
Of course, Christmas is not about rivalry with the people on the other side of the hill.
This is I think where our feelings differ dramatically on this issue.
The tree, etc etc etc, are most definitely sourced from pagan traditions. However, that does not mean that now, hundreds of years later, their fundamental meanings are the same. The pagan meanings have been long ago stripped away, and while there may be some who try to reclaim those original meanings, most people who celebrate Christmas come by the traditions through a Christian lens.
Um, what? Who is ruining “the holidays”? People who don’t celebrate Christmas? For whom are they ruining it? How does my (hypothetical) not celebrating Christmas ruin it?
Also, I think it’s flat-out wrong to analyze something by pointing to its origins while ignoring subsequent history. If we’re going to argue that the Christmas tree is pagan, than can we also argue that the Catholic church supports the inquisition? That American culture derives in fact from the native people who lived here before the arrival of Europeans?
Denying the Christian ownership of Christmas and Christmas traditions is ridiculously insulting, particularly when using that as a basis for getting non-Christians to happily participate in your Christian holiday. If you don’t see why, I’m not sure how to make it more clear.
I don’t know, you tell me. Are you implying that anyone who doesn’t want to participate in any and all events which in part promote happiness are . . . ? I really don’t think that’s a line of discussion that leads to anything productive.
Not sure how this is a response. My question was why you are not equally promoting the Christian celebration of religious holidays of other faiths. The “Fourth of fricken July” hardly counts, nor does Halloween, which, despite its history, can hardly be considered religious.
If the point is the general feeling of “goodwill towards men” that Christmas engenders, than shouldn’t Christians celebrate other religious holidays that promote nice ideas? If not, why not? If so, why aren’t they doing it already?
Yes. But speaking English does not automatically give me the same culture as the rest of the English speaking world, nor does it require that I submit to cultural expectations of other English speakers.
I’ll second Guinastasia’s post:
First, I like begbert2’s post very much.
The two problems I have with this metaphor is:
[ul]
[li]Why do we need to be Green Bay fans? More particularly, why is it a big deal to my neighbor that my family are not Green Bay fans? We still enjoy football. We still have our own joys and sorrows shared with other Dallas fans. Why assume that we’re missing out on something fundamental just because we’re rooting for a different team?[/li][li]This second one is based on the concept that Christmas is still a religious holiday (which you don’t seem to feel), and it’s basically that while I might find a parent shielding his/her child from Green Bay fans to be a bit laughable, the concept of fostering a specific religious identity in one’s children is far more reasonable, IMHO.[/li][/ul]
I’ve invented a new holiday called Christmas and I celebrate it on the 25th of December. There are presents, stockings hung with care and a pine tree. Any similarities between my new holiday and a certain holiday that’s argued by some to celebrate some savior and lord is completely coincidental.
I believe in diversity so long as everyone acts just like me. :rolleyes:
How about the opposite, sqweels? Would you be open to celebrating Hanukkah? Perhaps have a “Christmas Menorah”, or candelebra?
As for supporting the local team along with your hometown after you move? I suggest you read this. Dude, it’s a damned good thing you didn’t mention someone from Pittsburgh who moved to Cleveland. DAMNED good thing.