Christmas should be a uniter, not a divider

In case this is directed at me, I wasn’t being sarcastic. It’s nobody elses buisness what I celebrate.

Yesterday a friend of mine was saying that we needed to get our old supper club together, which is made up mainly of people from our church. I said, “sure, but it will have to be after the holidays.” He took me to task for saying “holidays” instead of “Christmas” as if I was trying to be sensitive by not using “Christmas” when talking about a church group. As I pointed out, I meant that we should wait until after Christmas, New Year’s Day and Epiphany – all holidays I expected him to be observing.

You should have added that “holidays” means “holy days,” so by calling them that, you were making it clear that you considered them to be holy. :wink:

It was for sqweels.

I am Jewish, and I agree with this 100%.

No matter what the origins of such customs as decorated trees and Santa Claus are, they are still heavily identified as symbols of a distinctly Christian holiday, and that is something I, as a Jew, do not wish to celebrate. Asking Jews to conflate Hanukkah and Christmas to spare the feelings of others is, frankly, the dumbest idea I’ve heard in a while. You may as well ask us to eat ham and set out a basket of candy for Elijah at the Passover seder.

That said, my family is blended. I’m Jewish, Airman is Catholic, and we’re apparently raising an atheist. The holiday season is kind of tricky because the sprog looks forward to Christmas because Airman’s family makes a big deal out of it, and my family is too far away to make such a big deal out of Hanukkah. So we’re teaching him that Mom celebrates Hanukkah and Dad celebrates Christmas, but that I go to Grandma’s house for Christmas out of respect for Dad, and Dad lights the menorah out of respect for me. In the spring, we’ll do the same for Easter and Passover.

Robin

Well, “subsequent history” shouldn’t have to irretrievably render something that’s universal into something sectarian and restricted. And you’re ignoring the more recent history whererby the Christian aspects of the holidays have largely been relegated to the sidelines, on top of the mid-term evolution like the rise of Santa Claus and the importance of shopping.

You might say that Yuletide has been masquerading as a Christian holiday for a time, but is now free to be celebrated in a purely secular manner.

That makes no sense.

Well, we’re talking about Western culture, which includes both the Roman alphabet and a late December holiday season with a red-and-green motif.

But Native Americans have made some contributions to Western culture. As I ague in my CULTURE essay, (scroll down to the bottom) Native American culture–but not Christianity–had a significant influence on the US Constitution.

That’s just a long-winded way of saying, “nuh-uh”.

No Christian even uttered “Happy Hanukkah” or went along with including a Menorah in a display?

Here’s the calendar of Western culture:

In the summer we have a festival with fireworks and picnics.
In the fall we have a festival with pumpkins and masquerade parties.
In the winter we have a festival with evergreens and presents.
In the spring we have a festival with colored eggs and rabbits.

They’re celebrating a Pagan holiday! What more do you want?

But it’s part of a considerable overlap, along with all sorts of secular things, including the idea that December could use a little brightening up.

But enough about you. Do what you want. And let your kids do want they want. Let’s just not have there be a requirement that some people have to sit alone in darkness and boredom on Dec. 25th. There’s plenty of boredom to be had hanging out at your folks’ house doing jigsaw puzzles. :slight_smile:

It’s not that big of a deal. It’s just that the commiity spirit thing is kind of nice.

But the only time anyone in your household was allowed to watch football was that one time the Cowboys were on Monday Night Football.

And December holiday whatevers don’t detract from that any more than football does.

This sort of thing is certainly woven into my point.

Sure thing. Little Manischewitz, little nosh. And in a few weeks we can get together for Gentile New Year.

Now I know that it’s only a coincidence that the Jewish Festival of Light occurs around the time of the winter solstice, but stringing lights gives it something in common with you-know-what.

And don’t Jewish kids get presents over the 8 days of Hanukkah? That’s a pretty significant tie-in with the broader holiday season.

You might have been building toward a point but you undermine yourself with presumptuous remarks like this - why do you assume, even (I hope) jokingly, non-Christians sit alone in darkness and boredom on December 25th?

First of all, I can’t afford the electric bill, so I don’t string lights in my house. I also don’t have a Christmas tree. I do, however, have a nice menorah that my parents gave me as a wedding present.

Second, the custom of giving gifts for Hanukkah originated in North America so Jewish kids wouldn’t feel left out. Hanukkah is really a minor festival, not a major holiday.

Look. Celebrating the Jewish holidays and festivals allows me to celebrate my identity and my cultural heritage, which is the same identity my ancestors were not allowed to express, and if they did, they were punished for it. I live in a country that was built on the promise that all people could worship as they saw fit and associate with whomever they chose. Why do you want to take that away?

Robin

Why do American Jews make such a big deal of Hannukah, which is a minor Jewish holiday?
Probably because it’s close to Christmas and the kids want some of what all those other kids are getting.
Why do American Christians make such a big deal of Christmas, which should be a minor Christian holiday?
Probably because it supplanted pagan holidays that were a whole lot of fun and the kids wanted some of what those other kids were getting.
Interesting, too, since many of he first Europeans in North America didn’t celebrate Christmas.

Maybe it’s just the universal desire to have some fun and string some lights when the days are short and cold. Good reason to switch to a different holiday in the southern hemisphere. Why waste good celebrating when it’s warm and sunny?

I grew up never celebrating Christmas and never really missed it. My kids don’t really care either.

We have our own traditions, our holidays and events we look forward to. We enjoy cultural holidays (New Year’s, Thanksgiving, Fourth of July) as a country and then a few times a year we go off and celebrate our own holidays and other people celebrate theirs. There is commanility to foster community spirit. COmmunity spirit can also be fostered by our differences. I enjoy being invited to a friend’s Christmas party- it’s fun and we have a good time. I learn about their traditions and enjoy their company. I have friends come over for Purim treats, they enjoy our culture and we have a good time. OUr lives are enhanced by our differences.

It’s attitudes like this- like I’m missing something so amazing becasue I don’t have Santa and a tree in my house that pushes me away and feels divisive. I actually have a pretty good life (as do my kids) without Christmas- shocking, I know! :dubious:

Again, do you have any notion whatsoever of sports fans? Should I, a Steelers fan, happen to move to Cleveland, then go and root for the Browns as well? If your answer is yes, I think that pretty much proves our point.

Of course. But it’s included when we’re talking about “the holidays” and serves as an example of how the season is a multi-headed entity, with shared and different cultural traditions branching out and ever-evolving.

And if all the kids care about is what presents they’re getting and what goodies they’re scarfing, then they’re all

Look. By no means am I insisting Jews etc. abandon any of their cultural traditions and engage in activities when they’d prefer not to. My point is that a December holiday tradition has evolved that is secular and independent from Christianity in its public expression, even as most elements are pre-Christian to begin with.

This doesn’t make it impossible to celebrate the birth of Christ , but it does make it possible for non-Christians to celebrate too. Given its long-standing popularity, this could be a powerful unifying force in society, but on the one hand, conservative Christians mistrust a secularized holiday as an attack on their religion, while non-Christians mistrust it as not secular enough to not be an attack on theirs.

I just think that the divisiveness that ensues is a bit of a pity, snce it’s so needless.

I can’t speak for anyone else here, but I’m sure I’m making a safe point.

The reason we don’t celebrate Christmas in any form is because we don’t want to. How hard is that to understand?

Robin

Popularity among Christians…

Listen, I take issue with your basic premise that the lack of conformity around this holiday leads to divisiveness.

conformity != community

What causes divisiveness is the thrusting of this holiday onto people who don’t want to celebrate it, and the Christians who are always telling me I’m missing something and depriving my children. Divisiveness is caused by a lack of respect, not a lack of conformity.

Divisiveness is caused by my son’s art teacher in second grade trying to get him in trouble for telling another student that he didn’t believe Santa- when he had been asked (the principal laughed at her)!

Divisiveness is caused by my 7th grade choir teacher asking us to sing overtly religious songs where I had to praise Christ as my savior (she backed down).

Divisiveness is caused by a town government putting up a nativity scene prompting my daughter to ask - The Mayor wants us to be Christian?

It’s really caused by my state college system scheduling a workshop in erev Rosh HaShana (when I should be home cooking), or my sister having to go to a board of ed meeting on Yom Kippur!

It’s not caused because I don’t celebrate Christmas!

To be fair, I don’t really see that this is necessarily a violation of one’s religious rights. Considering that many traditional pieces are religious in nature, I think it’s more about the piece itself, and not about the statements. It would be excluding many important songs and compositions because of religious beliefs.
The technique and the style is what’s important-not the beliefs.

(Of course, I don’t know what your teacher was like. I could be wrong. I’m just sayin’.)

And again, sqweels, would you please answer my question?

It wasn’t so much a violation of rights as an example of Christmas causing divisiveness. I had to participate in my public school chorus and then I had to sing very overtly religious songs- there were other perfectly fine choices. I (and a few others) felt very uncomfortable being compelled to sing praises to to savior not my own. We had to ask to tone down the religious aspect of the music- this is the type of example the OP could include as being divisive.
To his credit, the choral director respected our wishes and accommodated us. Perhaps this isn’t the best example, but it was an example of feeling separate at Christmas time, in which that feeling had nothing to do with whether or not I celebrate a secular form of Christmas.

Well, I hear you there. I’m just saying, sometimes, you have to study songs that are religious in nature. For an optional choir class, that would probably work better.

Say, the Ave Maria, for example. Or Mozart, Handel, Bach, etc. Of course, I’m going by my sister, who’s a music major.

But yeah, otherwise, I agree with you.