But don’t mellow too far, as a bulldog is useful to have around here sometimes.
Precisely. Collounsbury sinks his fangs into various ignoramuses so you (or, more to point, I) don’t have to. Seriously, there are a number of POVs that the usually mild-mannered Flowbark would rather not deal with. So I’m glad that there are a few posters that are ready and able to take the pedestrian boneheads to task.
The more interesting question is how our resident pit bulls should approach reasonably intelligent posters who base their perceptions (in part) on experts who don’t know what they’re talking about. (e.g. Mainstream commentators on the Middle East who neither speak the local language nor spend much time in the region). OTOH, I can understand how Mr. Collounsbury’s invective can prove, um, distracting.
Hm. Maybe there’s a more mischievous question: How should one approach a Cheesemakus Collounsbury in its native habitat? I might recommend, “with due modesty”; or perhaps faux modesty if the former proves impossible.
Funny. I had pegged Collounsbury as a Brit, notwithstanding his NY work experience.
Tamerlane! You just said a cuss word!! :eek: I am shocked, I tell you. Just shocked. I never would have thought you’d say such a naughty word. You’re so erudite and well-mannered like tomndebb, whom I don’t believe I’ve ever seen post cuss words either. Oh, what is the world coming to when folks with huge vocabularies and who are so well read resort to using profanity? [celestina dabs at her eyes with a dainty hanky.] You’ve got to set an example for the impressionable minds that hang out around here. I’ll forgive you since you did it presumably to get Collounsbury told, but I don’t want to see this kind of thing happening again. There’s only so much my delicate sensibilities can stand. [sub]Gosh, I just love the Pit.[/sub]
Neourotic: A general history of the Middle East or of Islam? Most of the stuff I have history-wise is fairly specific ( I’m assuming you don’t want to read Khurasan Under Abbasid Rule, 747-820 ).
The best general history book on Islam I can think of, ( and obviously focusing a good deal on the Middle East, though definitely not exclusively ) is probably Ira M. Lapidus’ A History of Islamic Societies ( 1988, Cambridge University Press ). But it’s fairly big, at about 1000 pages including index, a little over your price limit at $40 and covers the entire length and breadth of the Islamic world over 13 centuries. It may be simultaneously more general in area and time period and more heavy in detail than you’re looking for.
Albert Hourani’s A History of the Arab Peoples is similar and really only slightly more focused on the Arabs. I think it’s not as useful, but it’s certainly not bad and it’s way cheaper ( and a bit shorter ).
If you are looking specifically for general histories of the post-1300 Near East, I’m not sure if I can think of any off the top of my head. Most are at least a little more specific. If you can narrow it down a bit, I can give you more options. For example David Morgan has a nice, very concise volume on Medieval Persia, 1040-1797. Or if you are interested in the period around WW I, I recommend A Peace To End All Peace: * The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East* by David Fromkin. For modern Iran and the evnts leading up to the revolt in 1979, Nikki Keddie’s Roots of Revolution:* An interpretive History of Modern Iran* is quite good. For modern political Islam, in addition to the book I cited in GD ( which is a little more narrowly focused ), The Islamic Threat:Myth or Reality? by John Esposito is pretty good.
Or if you decide you really do want to get really specific Pivot of the Universe:* Nasir al-Din Shah Qajar and the Iranian Monarchy 1831-1896* by Abbas Amanat isn’t bad ;).
I can suggest some others if I haven’t hit anything of interest yet ( I’m just grabbing stuff at random off my bookshelves ). They are a number of decent works on the Ottomans for example or the Arab/Israeli conflicts.
yawn I’ve read some of Collounsbury’s stuff on occasion. I’m impressed that someone who loathes the Israelis so much could possibly suck so much Arab dick. For God’s sake man, not everything is “Zionist propaganda”.
I’m sorry, does he not consistantly and without question side with the Arabs on everything? If I am wrong, then maybe I’ll find an Arab dick to suck to atone for my statements.
Ah finally a response I can sink my teeth into. If only I were in the proper mood.
Tramp my dear fellow, I could kiss, but I prefer to respond:
Well, my dear fellow, could you be more specific? No, not everything in Zionist propaganda, only those things which I have specifically noted as such. Factual issues, you know. Factual. If you have factual problems then you should bloody well develop them. Else don’t be a fucking whinging bitch.
Now, as for loathing Israelis, quite the contrary. I love lots of Israelis. Israel, for its flaws, for its humanity is a wonderful place in large part. But ** a human place** and one as I have frequently noted has done a pretty decent job. I rather am optimistic that with the proper political solutions the folks I love – and I mean that with the real sense of the word – on both sides of the conflict, can get together and we can all wake up with goddamned ‘araq hangovers cursing the day the Turks ever perverted the process of fermentation. (It’s always good in the Middle East to blame it on the Turks, sorry Watermelon Man.)
See, unlike yourself, I have been on both sides. A Café in Tel Aviv, in Cairo, in Beiruit and in Sanaa’. Unlike yourself, as it is painfully evident, I am familiar with both sides and have dear friends on both sides. Dear friends. I wish no ill on Israel. I wish no ill on Palestine – although I often feel as if I would like to curse both to hell.
One of the messages that I read on this board which moved me the most –indeed almost as much as a certain film which I feel is integral to understanding the dynamics, the structure of the conflict, which is la bataille d’alger was a post by Alessan here where he stated (and I paraphrase) he understood the P’s actions – in their boots he might do the same, but goddammit he was going to defend his…. Or something on those lines. No demonization, no childish indulgence in moral posturing. I have deep respect for him, very deep. And in his place I would do the same. As such, I entirely understand the Israeli responses, as for the most part the Palestinian ones, even the morally and ultimately unsupportable ones.
However, finding solutions requires one to go rather beyond the personal, indeed to go into personally painful areas to achieve compromises with folks one may indeed personally hate, and indeed with good reason.
So, if having a balanced perspective is – how did you put it, with your pedestrian insult, ah yes, ‘sucking Arab dick’ – then yes I am guilty of being an Arab fag, a Arab dicksucker or whatever stupid, homophobic and ultimately unimaginative insult you may wish to develop in your pedestrian little reaction against my critiques.
As such, let me share an item, a NYT story
It made my eyes misty for I thought of the folks who I know on both sides of the conflict, and perhaps expresses why I get more than a trifle upset when real idiocy is posted in its regard.
I also am moved to recall seeing a picture of an Israeli woman whose son, if I recall correctly, had been killed in a bombing.
I was moved especially because her name was Moroccan – indeed last and first matched precisely, eerily even, that of a (non-Jewish) friend of mine, and her face, so typically Berber that I was almost …. Well what can one say? Riahi. A name that means a lot to me. So very much.
You want to claim I hate Israelis? Go right, I could give a fuck in the final analysis. My Avis, my Rachels, My Habibas etc. know where I personally stand.
Well, that was not a proper pit response, but fuck it, a few drinks and one gets a little emotive.
BTW Anahita, I regret to inform you that while I know a smattering of wolof, and fula and tachelhit, I am only really operative in Arabic dialects. No Farsi akhi, no farsi. One day.
Oh and Collounsbury, I assumed you were of the female sex anyhow. And sucking an Arab dick can be a perfectly wonderful physical expression of lust between a woman and her Arab man. I won’t bore you with the details, but perhaps you should try it sometimes, it really is alot of fun.
Shame on me for thinking you were a woman. Shame on you for thinking I am homophobic.
Well, that would be in the context of the paragraph which should be clear enough to someone of an ordinary native reading comprehension in the English language. If, of course, your native language is not in fact English I shall be happy to clarify, else I suggest you undertake some program in remedial English, and just for good measure, logic to help you along. You know, on the odd chance you might actually use either, that is English or logic.
As for shaming me in regards to the homophobic angle, well fuck all, I thought it was pretty well-known and as your knees are well-worn it wasn’t bad assumption, but regardless, the sad little pedestrian insult, devoid of real interest I suppose in the final analysis, on the sexual angle simply adds to your ignorance as it hardly gets better assuming I am an islamoslut.
Truly effective (the whole post, not just the quote). Withering, even. And not a cuss word in the batch. I’m proud of you, son.
Heck, it was even posted in the Pit. Awesome restraint.
Seriously, C: a great post, and its great to see the 'f’s evaporate. Much appreciated. The prose is flawless, and additional decorative emphasis was unneeded and would be (and has been in the past) a distraction. Just my opinion, but I think others would agree.
Thanks large, and please don’t sprain your arm wielding the 3-ton ignorance-hammer (or would that be “saber-of-idiot-thwacking”?) at so many targets of opportunity. Pace yourself.
Well, I find the guy annoying. He’s so freakin’ quick to turn a GQ into a GD and a GD into a pit thread.
I started a GQ thread a few months ago asking about the extraterritorial powers of (non-federal) police forces. My mistake was in the example I chose: New York City police going to Afghanistan. (I should have used the example of the Texas Rangers going into Mexico).
Well, Collounsbury jumps in with a non-responsive, inflammatory answer talking about how foolish it would be for anyone to go to Afghanistan like that.
When he was at his worst, it was basically impossible to have a civil discussion about race or the middle-east on this board.
I have no shame that my knees are well worn. Mr. tramp enjoys it and I enjoy doing it. Maybe if your significant other’s knees were a little broken in, you wouldn’t be wound so tight.
Tamerlane, thank you, those suggestions are very helpful. To narrow it down, I’m more interested in the Middle East during the Middle Ages, post-Crusades. I’m fairly familiar with the region’s history leading up to the Crusades, and during the 19th century and on…but it sort of falls of my mental map in the middle there. Again, thanks, I’ll be looking into the ones you suggested.
).
That’s genteel enough, particularly in the face of such provocative ignorance from tramp.