Colorado Recall Elections

There’s more to all this than Patrick Henry, but I don’t think the banning of guns is a genuine consideration in 2013.

That said, here’s a Patrick Henry quote from another source:

Hyperlink mine.

Slavery was protected via the revised 2nd Amendment. The application of tyranny was enforced- against the black slaves, by the slave patrol militias. If someone has a sound cite to defend the notion that the 2nd Amendment is somehow referring to a popular, armed uprising against the government, let’s see it. AFAICT, it has to do with foreign invasions and slave suppression.

There are people posting in this thread that are clearly in favor of banning guns. Don’t pretend this is a strawman when we’ve got post after post of examples of exactly this sort of thinking.

…and in many other countries it does not. Mexico has strict gun laws yet the cartels have no shortage of guns.

Don’t believe the Obama administrations repeated lies that these guns come from the US, either. The well financed and organized cartels have access to machine guns that have been banned even in the US since the 1930s.

A while = Hundreds of years. Guns basically don’t “wear out”. When properly maintained they last indefinitely. Even if not maintained they last decades or longer.

Rifles used in World War II are still functional and in use today. My hunting camp has a couple of them that haven’t been maintained at all and aren’t even stored well but they still shoot just fine.

Then there’s the other problem of them being gradually confiscated. You say this like it’s nothing, yet what you are suggesting is criminalizing huge swaths of the country. It would be the drug war all over again, only ten times worse.

I hope you are ready to dedicate a small fortune to building all the prisons this would require.

That’s overstating the case. Henry was complaining that as written, the Constitution had a loophole that could conceivably allow the federal Congress to manumit the slaves- by summoning them to military duty (on the theory that no man who has been armed and fought could be kept in slavery afterwards). No one wanted the federal Congress to have a “surprise, sucka!” power- even to de facto destroy slavery, noxious as many considered it. It wasn’t so much that slavery was adored as that federal tyranny was feared.

BTW: I am unaware that the slave patrols were ever referred to as the “slave patrol militia”. AFAIK, the slave patrols were organized within the general constabulary police power of the states, and to the extent that non-professional citizens assisted, it was as deputies, not mustered militia, except in the extraordinary case of an actual uprising.

The Second Amendment was not to keep the slaves controlled.

I’m happy with the result of the recall. Elections and recalls are a political process and engaging in a recall strategy to remove politicians from office is perfectly viable and within the framework as established. I see no reason to have any aversion to them.

There’s a big difference between being in favor of something, and proposing it. Yes, there are plenty of people who would be quite happy if guns were banned. Those people also know that it ain’t going to happen any time in the foreseeable future, so they don’t waste everyone’s time with trying to do it. There is, however, a hope of getting the regulations that the pro-gun side say are reasonable in place, so they do try that.

In that case, it would make no difference to shut down all of the gun manufacturers, right? Might as well-- Everyone would still have their choice of all of those perfectly-functioning used guns, so nobody would actually have their rights restricted by this.

How would “everyone” have that choice? The people who own the existing guns couldn’t buy new ones; the people who don’t own any guns would have to wait for someone to sell.

Do you imagine that the government could shut down newspapers by forbidding the sale or possession of ink?

Lets discuss the Patrick Henry quotes and how the 2nd amendment was really a way to maintain slavery.

I re-read the article (written by Thom Hartmann) that was given as a cite for this claim. Now, I have NEVER heard this claim, and I am fairly well read on the subject of American History. I thought it sounded a big contrived, as I have already stated, by someone looking to twist the past into something that would make the 2nd amendment tied to slavery and therefore something that MUST be abolished. Since the regular arguments for gun control and 2nd amendment abolishing haven’t worked, why not connect it to slavery, one of the darkest (no pun intended) chapters in our history?

So I read the article. Didn’t see any smoking gun (haha) that made me think that the 2nd amendment was a hidden way to create slave wranglers… Basically, the idea proposed by Elvisl1ves and others is that the militia was not to defend the state in which it was organized, but it was to defend the human property (slaves) that were a big part of the population and economy in the southern US.

OK. I’m open minded. So I read it again, since there seems to be a real belief in this as the genesis of the 2nd amendment.

According to the article, (the only reference to an academic is some guy named Dr. Bogus… Seriously, who wrote something in the California Law Review in 1998), the concern by Patrick Henry, James Madison and George Mason was Article 1, Section 8…

I quote from the article:

“Their main concern was that Article 1, Section 8 of the newly-proposed Constitution, which gave the federal government the power to raise and supervise a militia, could also allow that federal militia to subsume their state militias and change them from slavery-enforcing institutions into something that could even, one day, free the slaves.”

What? OK, lets look at Article 1, Section 8.

Section. 8.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;–And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

There it is, in all of its colonial glory. Where in Article 1, section 8 does it state that the State militias would be used by the federal government to usurp the state militias and use them to free the slaves? Did you miss it? You are not alone.

No less than James Madison, upon hearing Patrick Henry’s concern states (quoted again from the article:)

“James Madison, the “Father of the Constitution” and a slaveholder himself, basically called Patrick Henry paranoid. “I was struck with surprise,” Madison said, “when I heard him express himself alarmed with respect to the emancipation of slaves. . . . There is no power to warrant it, in that paper [the Constitution]. If there be, I know it not.””

So, no less than James Madison, a Virginian AND a slave owner, said Henry was paranoid, and reading something into article 1 section 8 that simply wasn’t there. By the way, the author forgot that he listed the same James Madison as one of the three guys at the beginning of this article that were concerned about the article in the first place! Maybe he forgot what he wrote. But that’s some sloppy work.

The author of this article then goes on to discuss the evolution of the 2nd amendment. He offers no cites, no actual proof. He just says what he wants to make the story work for his point of view. He states that Madison, at Jeffersons request, began writing amendments to the constitution, and re-wrote the 2nd to make sure the southern states would be able to maintain their “slave-patrol militias”. Where in the world is the proof of this?

Hartmann claims that the 2nd amendment was written to make sure that Henry would understand that militias (state slave-controlling organizations) would remain under the direction of the individual states.

James Madison, by the words of this author, basically re-wrote the 2nd amendment to appease one person, Patrick Henry, who Madison himself labeled as “paranoid.” Madison was a bright man. There would have been a debate on the subject of “slave-patrol militias” in the continental congress before an amendment would be re-written to make one guy happy. Especially a Virginian, (Henry), who was from the same state as Madison and Jefferson. The author of this article seems to be making this up out of thin air and wishful thinking. He bases it on the changing of one word “country” to “state” to make his case.

I’ll leave it to you to read the article and make up your own minds. Bear in mind, he offers no actual proof of this, no cites. He states it as fact. Maybe Madison DID change the wording on the amendment, and maybe he didn’t. And maybe if he did, he did it for the reason implied, or maybe he didn’t. Clearly, it only works if the authors opinion is taken as gospel.

If there is any doubt as to the author’s POV, the last paragraph should clear it up. It’s this type of hyperbole that turns people like me off. I’m someone that has no trouble with limiting some of the various types of arms available to the public, but I have real trouble with eliminating the right. And if the only way gun control and anti-2nd amendment advocates can get anyone to listen to them is to make the following statement, it lessens their credibility (to me, at least):

From the article:
“Little did Madison realize that one day in the future weapons-manufacturing corporations, newly defined as “persons” by a Supreme Court some have called dysfunctional, would use his slave patrol militia amendment to protect their “right” to manufacture and sell assault weapons used to murder schoolchildren.”

Yeah… That’s not an agenda-driven, anti-gun crusader using his “pulpit” to completely stretch the limits of logic and history to try and make his “point.”

To add to what Lumpy has said, and to pull a quote from my previous post attributed to James Madison about Patrick Henry:

“James Madison, the “Father of the Constitution” and a slaveholder himself, basically called Patrick Henry paranoid. “I was struck with surprise,” Madison said, “when I heard him express himself alarmed with respect to the emancipation of slaves. . . . There is no power to warrant it, in that paper [the Constitution]. If there be, I know it not.””

I hae never heard or read anywhere other than the article by Thom Hartmann of a star militia being called “slave-patrol militia”

The second amendment:
Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
That’s it. Now if Patrick Henry, who was the Governor of Virgina I believe, used his own state militia to hunt down and control slaves, I don’t know about it. But I guess he could have.

I believe the state constitutions were what the governors were tied to, and what the state of Virginia’s constitution says on this issue I do not know.

As for the Second amendment, I think it is pretty clear that the right to keep and bear arms (guns) for the individual citizen was clearly intended. And a gun owned by a citizen did NOT obligate that citizen to serve in the militia, slave hunting or otherwise. It was a standalone right, not contingent upon the participation of the gun owner in any militia.

Well, I can think of three easy reasons:

  1. people that already own one gun would like to own more than one. Or two or ten. A rifle, a shotgun and a couple of handguns is four right there, and that would be for someone who likes guns, maybe hunts and/or target shoots for fun.

  2. each year, more people turn the legal age to own a firearm and buy their first.

  3. gun manufacturers are not immune to new technology, and gun collectors will always buy a new gun if it is something that appeals to them.

Ok.

I don’t personally want to abolish the 2nd, FWIW. I’m not sure what Hartman’s position on that is. Me, I am interested in this argument, and please remember the other part of my point, namely that the 2nd Amendment doesn’t have one.single.thing to do with armed rebellion against the federal government. No, it seems to have more to do with slavery, even if it turned out that way to appease the special interest that was Patrick Henry.

If there is any merit to this argument, these strike me as the relevant lines.

You have to look at this through the lens of a colonial-era authority in a slave state. To him, in the happy circumstance of contributing to the authorship of a constitution in the post-war victory aftermath, it must have seemed as if the Feds would get to make all the decisions wrt the military. There is declaring war. There is raising an army. Authorship over the “Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces”. Rules for calling forth the militia and dealing with “insurrections and invasions”. Governing the militias.

What kinds of insurrections do you think the framers were worried about? Slave insurrections have to at least be on the list. But, if the feds dominate all military decisions, down to calling forth and “governing” the militias, then they might have the authority to ignore slave insurrections. Perhaps this strategy would not have destroyed the entire institution of slavery, but it would certainly have undermined it and led to a lot of motivated, escaped slaves migrating to the North. And, if the State militias really were employed in the business of enforcing slavery (see the evidence in this thread), this concern seems even more believable, unsavory though it may be.

Sure. These guys are politicians. You can’t say anything in a debate like this without someone asserting the opposite thing, that’s just how it works. He claims not to detect the threat of manumission in “that paper”, but (I think you admit) appeases Patrick Henry anyway by amending “that paper” to grant authority over the militias to the States instead of the feds. Did Madison’s statement come before or after the edit?

Madison talked some snark, but inked the 2nd Amendment the way Patrick Henry wanted it. The ink has far more weight IMHO.

To be fair, the author does have a cite, namely the book Slave Patrols: Law and Violence in Virginia and the Carolinas. I haven’t read it so I can’t say if it is any good or not. At the very least, there seems to be enough data on the slave patrols to write a book about the subject. For your convenience, here is the Amazon blurb:

Note that the blurb claims that the slave patrols were formed by “state militias”.

Right, instead of the feds. Who knows how many people Patrick Henry was representing, or how powerful he (and the slave interests) were?

Look, if it can be shown that this is a bad argument, so be it. But that one change sure could make a lot of difference to a restless mind like Patrick Henry’s, no?

There was a cite…

I’ll grant that we haven’t verified this part of the story one way or the other.

Yah I hear ya. Hartman is a partisan for sure, and I suppose that for his audience, this kind of conclusion would feel consonant. I can see how it is over the top- it is like red meat for people who would really like to run amok with this point.

Another thing I can concede is that just about anybody could get cheesed off by legislators (like the recalled ones in Colorado) voting on controversial legislation immediately after cutting short the public comment/debate session. I hate it when that happens.

I can also concede to Lumpy that I did overstate the case. The National Guard probably can be viewed as the ‘final’ expression of the 2nd Amendment, along with the lynch mob.

But, is Hartman’s point really so hollow? I may have to read up some more on the slave patrols, but I still think he might be correct in his claim that the 2nd Amendment has something to do with slavery, and that I might still be correct in my claim that it has nothing to do with sanctioning a military coup against the feds.

And another of the extremist legislators was kicked out yesterday. Evie Hudak She resigned in disgrace, rather than face a recall where the petitioners got something like two or two and a half times more signatures than required.

One more anti-democratic crazy out of the Colo Legislature.

Resigned in disgrace? Nice spin dude. Did you read the same article I did? I thought we were supposed to combat ignorance on this board, not just engage in political sniping.

To paraphrase the article, she resigned for several reasons:

  1. To save Jefferson County money with the recall election . Yeah, right… If there were any chance that she would win, she would have fought.
  2. To help her fellow Democrats by removing the distraction of her recall. Taking one for the team. This is a credible reason
  3. According to Colorado law, if she resigns she will be replaced by a Democrat. If she gets recalled, she would be replaced by a Republican and the house would tip to the Republicans control. This is the real reason she was convinced to resign.

Whatever. As a resident of Jefferson County, I probably voted for this lady as I can’t stand the Tea Party whack jobs that dominate and run the Republican Party these days. That said, I am not really a supporter of gun control and could really care less that she got punished for her stance on it. The bill was stupid and would not have accomplished what was intended. Regardless of how I feel about the stupid ideological stance these guys took, I will continue to vote straight Democratic ticket until the Republicans regain some stanity in their party. My guess is that her seat will remain in control of the Democrats in coming elections.

Anti-democratic crazy? Yeesh. What a partisan hack.

Unless I’m mistaken, the recall efforts in Colorado were a single-issue plebiscite over gun control. I’m glad this happened because politically gun rights are too often an orphan issue: people who are not particularly anti-gun will nonetheless vote pro-Democrat (or anti-Republican) on other issues, and then you get gun control bundled into the Democratic platform. Which is ironic because with exceptions who truly are pro-gun, the Republicans by and large have been lukewarm supporters of gun rights. As has been mentioned in many threads, dropping gun control would probably give the Democratic Party nationwide majorities; but they simply won’t do it.

Yawn. I’m telling you what happened, not her spin

To paraphrase the article, she resigned for several reasons:

  1. To save Jefferson County money with the recall election . Yeah, right… If there were any chance that she would win, she would have fought.
  2. To help her fellow Democrats by removing the distraction of her recall. Taking one for the team. This is a credible reason
  3. According to Colorado law, if she resigns she will be replaced by a Democrat. If she gets recalled, she would be replaced by a Republican and the house would tip to the Republicans control. This is the real reason she was convinced to resign.
    [/quote]

There’s some truth to #3, but she was shrieking to the hills on Tuesday that she was in it for the long-haul, she’d fight to the end, there was no POSSIBLE way she could lose…until it turned out that the signature gatherers had gotten gotten something like two and a half times more signatures than needed. Then SUDDENLY she decided to “save the taxpayers money”.

Are you even aware of the issue? There were 7 bills, not 1, (of which 4 passed). Which one is “the bill” that you consider stupid. Which of the remaining 6 did you support? I thought we were combating ignorance here. :wink:

As an aside, she’s also the douchebagette who told a victim of rape that the victim shouldn’t be allowed to carry a gun because a big strong man would have taken it from her-Hudak had made-up statistics from an anti-gun group to prove it. Maybe she could have just carried a whistle? (Or, perhaps, laid back an enjoyed it?). She was also oogling Patrick Swayze and tweeting to her homies about her yoga class on her iPad when she was in committee to investigate a major prison problem that resulted in a law enforcement officer’s murder. :rolleyes: So while it’s largely about gun control (90+%, clearly) there’s also more to it with her.

This is what I thought when I read the article; her claim that she was resigning to save Jeffco money was clearly bullshit (an opinion I thought I clearly indicated in my post). Still, I still think your original “resigned in disgrace” is bullshit. She clearly still has some supporters and feels no shame for her actions. I think it is likely more accurate to say she was convinced to resign by other Colorado Democrats so they could hold on to control of the legislature. I will also add that after poking around, I agree with you that she is clearly a douche bag and I am glad she is gone…

Regardless of how it went down, I stand by my original opinion that your political rhetoric is overblown (“crazy, anti-democratic, extremist is kicked out of Colorado Legislature and resigns in disgrace”). You can express yourself however you want, but that kind of rhetoric makes it almost impossible (for me at least) to take anything you say seriously. For the record, I feel the same way about all the people on the left who used words like fascist or taliban when describing the right. Whatever…

Not really, no. I supported none and I viewed the whole thing as a distraction. The Supreme Court has clearly ruled that there is an individual right to possess firearms with Heller and McDonald. I don’t believe banning “assault weapons” is going to solve anything with respect to gun violence in this country. Same with high capacity magazines. The whole thing is a stupid waste of political capital IMHO.

What would, then?

Fix the mental healthcare system in this country. Address poverty in a meaningful way through equalization of opportunity. I believe that addressing these two problems would do more to reduce gun violence than banning an ambiguous weapon type that is responsible for <5% of gun deaths. IMHO, YMMV, etc…

And if voters in Hudak’s district had voted to oust her and replaced her with a Republican, the GOP would have gained control of the Senate by one seat. Democrats now have only an 18-17 majority over Republicans, thanks to the successful recalls of Morse and Giron, who were replaced by Republicans. Under Colorado law, Hudak’s successor will be a member of her own party.

I think this is a purely political decision on Hudak’s behalf. The DNC is probably willing to find her another political position if she resigns OR she can disappear from the political scene. Her choice.

“IF” voters had voted to oust her AND to replace her with a Republican… the Republicans would have gained control of the State Senate.

While there is a very good chance that a Republican would win the recalled seat, it’s not guarenteed. It’s possible that the Democrat Party could find a pro-gun, pro-2nd candidate to run for office but given that particular state’s current displeasure with the arrogant Democrat party action of forcing their anti-gun, anti-2nd bills thru the legislature, I doubt it.

Only by resigning can the Democrats retain control of the State Senate.