Combat Armor

I just started a book called The Forever War, by Joe Haldeman. Looks pretty good so far (ironically one of the star clusters mentioned in the book is the Aldebaran Sector…for those of you who’ve seen Aldebaran’s posts you’ll know what I’m talking about :)).

Anyway, only a short way in the book starts to talk about Combat Armor. This is a theme I’ve seen in a lot of other books (Starship Troopers, Hymn Before Battle, Armor, etc) and I thought I’d open a thread to chat about it if anyone is interested.

Is fully articulated and self contained Combat Armor possible? Is it something we’ll eventually attempt to develop? Would it be useful in combat? How would it be used? What would it be like? How would it function?

I assume power would be the major constraint as making something that a human could stand in that could walk and move shouldn’t be a major task. What kinds of power sources could be used?

Anyway, feel free to go off on tangents and talk about whatever related to the books or to combat armor. Hopefully some dopers will be interested in the subject…its always facinated me.

-XT

I’m going to predict that by the time such armor is possible there won’t be any value to putting human beings in it. Just like the Comanche helicopter program was recently cancelled partly because of Rumsfeld’s liking for unmanned aircraft, such as the Predator drone.

Completely uncited reference here but I remember watching a program called (I think) Beyond 2000 many years ago, which showed upcoming technologies, where they interviewed a couple guys that were working on at least a prototype for one.
This was in the US and the only part they showed was the “legs” which they had based on kangaroos (somehow. Dont ask didnt understand the explanation myself.)
Basically looked like a harness with pogo sticks stuck to each leg, so the total height of the wearer was around 8-9 feet. Some sort of coil or spring basically absorbed the energy of the wearer on the downstride, and released it when pushing off so that there was little loss of energy (and therefore didnt need to add that much to get the thing moving. It was all metal so looked pretty heavy).

What really amazed me was that when the guy started moving, he was “running” pretty damn fast, and it looked JUST like the Japanese anime I was into at the time.
Very cool. Never heard any more about it though.

The thing that holds it back is cost. Sure its cool and possible, but it’d probably cost a few mil a suit. Then when someone gets hit by an RPG you lose a few mil and a soldier. It makes more sense to remote control the thing, so in the case of iminent destruction, no human life is lost. There just doesn’t seem a practical way to make it, and make it worthwhile to use.
However, if its not for a military application is might be worth considering. If someone found another use for such a suit (HazMat or Repair maybe?) it could be worthwhile. Something maybe like SCV’s in StarCraft.

Like the OP mentioned, a major hurdle is power. The has been a few ‘lifter suits’, like the ones used by Ripley in Alien/s, that actually work. What you don’t see is the large large and immobile pump powering the hydraulics. There was a prototype built recently for nurses to lift patients, can’t find a cite though.

In terms of storing power, fuel cells has been tossed around due to their high power/weight ratio, but I think the cost is still too high.

Well, I guess it would come down to how useful such armor was. If it was good enough to allow an individual soldier to do things that 10 or 20 soldiers couldn’t do, then it might be worth the cost. I know in Hymn Before Battle the individual suits cost what a small starship cost…but they were so useful that it was worth it.

As to the power, this is a major stumbling block IMO. Certainly you can make hydrolics small enough to enable a self contained suit, but how would you power it enough to run the hydrolics, electronics, enviromental (cooling, heating, water, air, bio), etc? You could run it on fuel cells but something like this would take a LOT of power I think.

Still, it would be cool to have soldiers that could run 60 miles per hour, jump 30 feet into the air and lift a large truck up. :slight_smile: Also, I wonder if you could build in enough armor protection (maybe layers Chobom armor like in the M1A1?) to protect the soldier but still allow mobility.

-XT

Wouldn’t most of those objections apply equally to contemporary armored vehicles? How much does an Abrams tank go for these days?

Each of the necessary joint articulations at the wrists, knees, hips, shoulders, elbows, etc. would represent a weak point, and a failure of any one of them would seriously affect mobility and effectiveness. It’d be easier to put the soldier in a miniature tank, hovercraft, dune buggy or other well-established vehicle pattern with fewer moving parts in its superstructure. I can picture late 21st-century soldiers wearing uniforms made of some descendant of kevlar, though, giving them light armor but keeping them fully mobile.

Besides, it’s not important to beef up the killing power of a single soldier. Much better to use technology to enhance the soldier’s ablity to gather and pass on information to artillery or air units and let them smoke the target.

The U.S. government’s DARPA is running a research project on powered exoskeletons now. I don’t know if they’ve had any success so far.

…Actually, according to this article, a fella named Kazerooni has built a recent exoskeleton. Said article is also the only place where I’ve found an image of the “Hardiman 1” exoskeleton prototype built by GE in the 60s. It would have allowed an operator to lift several hundred pounds effortlessly…except that GE’s engineers could only get one limb at a time to operate properly.

And for the do-it-yourselfers, there’s always the Project Grizzly approach…

Just FYI, The Forever War – which started life as the short story “Hero” – was originally Joe Haldeman’s answer to the over-the-top pro-military flagwaving in Starship Troopers. His use of powered armor suits was directly inspired by Starship Troopers, too.

However, Starship Troopers wasn’t the first time the concept appeared in written science fiction. E.E. “Doc” Smith’s Children of the Lens mentioned a suit of armor so heavy that it had to have built-in servomotors for its wearer even to be able to move. (Why the wearer couldn’t just use one of the ubiquitous Inertialess Drives lying around in that universe, I don’t know.)

What factors make armor a good idea?

“Urban” or “Low Intensity” activities: hallways and doorways, mainly human-sized opponents, squads rather than battalions. The bigger the armor, the more cumbersome, however. You can’t realistically climb stairs if your feet are too big.
No A.I.'s that can adequately do the job, and no tele-operation is feasible (the drone is the killer app). Another killer app: genetic engineering of “creatures” (not necessarily very human) that can get the job done.
Adequate power and mechanical tech.
Difficult environment (atmospheric composition, pressure, maybe vacuum, NBC situations). NBC = Nuclear, Biological, Chemical weapons.

In the excellent webcomic Schlock Mercenary, the tech available make it feasible to build pretty tough armor into a regular uniform. No weapons or strength augmentation, but a good idea. The weapons are guns, rifles, and tanks. This makes sense, since guns may need a lot more power, can give off a lot of heat or exhaust or have a mean recoil, and allow for more variety with a minimum of fuss. Do you really need superior physical strength at the cost of agility? Do you need big bulky armor with lots of guns stuck on it, making you a bigger target for others?

In Peter F. Hamilton’s “The Naked God” books, mercenaries and soldiers received surgery and implants and augmentations that gave them their edge: chameleon skin, boosted strength, “wraparound” or extra eyes, armor, connection to communication gear and computers, extra arms, all-around puncture- and burn-proofing, ability to survive many G’s of acceleration, etc.

A lot of thought went into some of the Iron Man tech, some good ideas or maybe inspired post facto invention. The latest armors are a sandwich of different layers with different functions: various armors on the outside, a power source layer, a servo-motor layer, a layer to sense the wearer’s movements, environmental conditioning, the computing elements, etc. Everything at a very small scale, making the armor less bulky. The War Machine armor (the black and silver one) carried a lot of firepower (rockets, flamethrower, chain gun) that achieved a big force multiplier effect, but also gave a lot of variable response flexibility (e.g. non-lethal force, short range and long range, armor piercing, etc.). The multi-millionaire superhero schtick does away with a lot of the questions we’ve brought up, like cost and motivation.

Starship Troopers is a good read and the armor had some clever functions, but it’s based on badly outdated and unimaginative concepts of warfare and strategy. The Starship Troopers cartoon had a good idea: a squad of marines was augmented with one or two armor-wearing soldiers (although the armors were close to being tanks): force-multiplier effect, gave the unit more options and a bigger punch.

The Sand Wars books mention one interesting use for armored operatives: body guards. On the other hand, can you imagine suicide bombers wearing some of these puppies? Hopefully, that will never be anything but wild speculation. Think of RoboCop, on the other hand. Nearly armor, and there aren’t big logic or plot holes. If the makers offer the tech to amputees or people with birth defects, they’ll get a whoile hell of a lot of volunteers.

Armor won’t ever be a good idea if the guns keep getting deadlier and their range keeps increasing. Picture armored soldiers against automated drones that pick up heat or electronic signatures. Or just motion sensors. It’s way easier and cheaper to make smart mines and big guns (or big tasers, to short out circuitry).

Unfortunately, no cite, but I remember reading an article recently in Popular Science about a suit that could be used for people with very low-mobility. It had a backpack sized power source and a frame work that fit around your legs (I don’ t remember if they had anything for your arms). The suit basically sensed when you wanted to push or bend your legs and would move for you. With it the inventor was able to leg press something like 450 pounds effortlessly. I bet I could find it if I just…
I thought it was in the Popular Science 100 Greatest Inventions list, but I just looked through it online so I don’t think it was. I read it in some magazine while waiting for an appointment so who knows what mag it was from?

Not really equivelant. The Abrams is far better protected than any human being could be, armored or no. Additionally, it mounts a far bigger gun and drives far faster and longer. Frankly, there simply isn’t a comparison.

The basic fact of the matter is that “mechs and power suits” are not cost-effective. With given technology it’s always better to use more practical designs.

Just wanted to jump in to say that Forever War was a very cool book.

Fun Fact: Haldeman initially had trouble getting his book published because publishers didn’t think readers wanted ‘yet another novel about Vietnam.’

Besides, why go to all the trouble of getting the firepower of a tank into a small room? Just blow the building up from outside.

Well here ya go! These guys built a set of Halo armor . It even has a real working headlamp and…
Yeah, I know.
(slinks away) :o

Of course, an Abrams tank wouldn’t be as mobile (in theory) as a powersuited trooper. A tank can’t duck, it can’t jump, it can’t go up a mountain, etc. So, if mobility was a factor then some kind of powered armor might be worthwhile if it could be made cheaply enough and give a certain amount of protection.

History has been full of the struggle between weapons advancement and armor with one side and then the other coming to the front. Maybe it won’t be powered armor like in the SciFi books (though I STILL say it would be way cool :)) but some kind of body armor that protects the trooper head to foot, along with an advanced electronics capability (GPS, encrypted squad, platoon, company, battalian, etc communications, maybe sensors to detect enemy, etc). I know the Army is working on such a suit atm, along with an advanced assault rifle that ties into the helmet…and even ‘smart’ amunition that can be fired around corners or explode via a proximity fuse when its in range of the target.

I think making each individual soldier more lethal IS a meaningful thing.

-XT

Such a gadget is possible, but don’t hold your breath, Most military innovations are based upon civil applications.

Until we get nifty Power Loaders (as seen in Aliens), we do not have a basis for a power suit.

Much the same effect could be achieved by developing a medical regime of some sort of safe bodybuilding drug. We could have battalions of 150Kg linebackers if we wanted to.

This just brings us to other angles to noodle over. If we could grow 'em that big, would we want to?

Brings up a good point though. There was another series I read (can’t remember the name of it off the top of my head and I’m at work) where soldiers (and even civilians to a lesser extent) were given nanites that increased reflexes, strength, regeneration, eyesite, etc. They also had implants that allowed data access and communications and such. Maybe instead of an exoskeleton and powered armor, we will give such enhancements to the people themselves? I know several people are looking at civilian implant technology for data communications and such and it does seem we are going that way. And medical nanite technology is also something thats being researched. Is this a more likely scenerio than powered armor?

-XT