I mean, before the invasion, Iraq had big, highly experienced police forces and a big, highly experienced army. They were dissolved after the invasion, but the individual officers/soldiers are still there. Why not just recruit them into the new forces? (No doubt many were Ba’ath Party members, but that was like the Communist Party in the Soviet Union or the Nazi Party in the Third Reich – something you had to join if you wanted to get ahead, so a party card in your wallet didn’t necessarily prove you were a true believer.)
Because it provides an excuse for maintaining the occupation. And just how slow are these guys to learn, anyway?
Also, I expect many aren’t willing to be collaborators; either out of patriotism, or out of fear they’ll be slaughtered when we leave. Or, they have joined the resistance, or fled the country, or become criminals ( didn’t a fair number of ex-KGB do that ? ).
Initially there was also a push to train them not to be torturers and murderers too.
But that seems to have gone out of fashion lately, especially as Iraq seems to be heading for lowlevel civil war with the police in some ways just one faction in that war.
Plus there’ve been some pretty public incidents of Anglo-American troops being torturers and murderers too, that kind of thing really saps the moral authority.
BB
Iraq’s military, while large, was largely made up of conscripts. Also, don’t forget that the US disbanded the military plunging the country into chaos.
It is pretty clear that a stable military and police presence that is loyal to the government is necessary to establish order in Iraq. Presumably, the country that invaded and destabilized Iraq has an obligation to re-establish order and services that the invasion disrupted.
You may however remember that this “big, highly experienced army” was largely incompetent in the field against the United States. Many of them fled or surrendered pretty quickly. And a great number of them actually didn’t perform like they were highly experienced or trained at all. In fact, to me there was the distinct impression a great many of them (the conscripts that made up a large percentage of the regular Army, for example) actually were only minimally trained.
The best trained soldiers were the ones very loyal to Saddam Hussein, the Republican Guard and the Special Republican Guard. And if we had kept those two organizations in operation it’d have been akin to keeping the SS in operation after WWII.
Generally, because nobody else was there to train them. I love “civil society,” and it can do a great deal, but I just don’t see a modern, professional police force or army emerging from the chaos of a postwar Iraq.
I get your second point, but was it only the Republican guard in its various guises that carried out internal security measures?
As an aside, it always struck me that the US has had this sort of experience twice in the past century, after the end of WWII Japan and Germany had no armed forces. Despite Churchill’s idea that Germany should become a nice pastoral place, it was pretty clear that Japan and Germany would need to rearm to allow the US and allies to leave. In fact, wasn’t it the British who used Japanese troops to help keep law and order after VJ day?
It’s true that the elite units of the Iraqi military were the ones used most often in maintaining order. The regular military made up mostly of conscripts was often poorly trained and equipped. Also, remember that Iraq had fought a brutal and demoralizing war with Iran in the 80s and the military was still recovering from that war plus the first gulf war.
There is a trend in the Middle East (and other parts) to treat the conscript part of the military as almost a public assistance program. Conscripts get some money, are used for public works projects and harvesting crops, but aren’t really battle ready.
Having said all that, there was a cadre of military professionals that could have formed the nucleus of a modern military and using the current standing military for things like public works and harvesting crops wasn’t such a bad idea. It would have kept them occupied and given them some money. It would also have put an Iraqi face on the reconstruction and pumped some money into the local economy.
This, in fact, was General Garner’s plan for the Iraq military. Garner was the first administrator of Iraq, who quickly lost the confidence of Rumsfeld who replaced him with Bremer. Bremer’s first two official orders were to disband the military and de-Baathify the government.
Many critics, including Garner (and not that it matters, myself) see this as the single biggest mistake of the occupation. It released tens of thousands of disgruntled, armed and unemployed men into Iraq. I was in Iraq at the time and the result of the order was immediate and disastorous. It plunged the country into a cycle of mayhem it never escaped.
The books Assasin’s Gate and the newly released Fiasco talk at length about this decision. I have never yet heard a serious counter to the claim that the disbanding of the military was a mistake other than dubious comparisons to WWII.
Sure it did. Made up of those most loyal to Saddam. The bulk of the army though were conscripts, poorly trained, lead and equipped…the elite being formations like the Republican Guards and para-military formations like the Fedayeen. The police were the same…by and large incompetent and poorly trained with a core of elite secret police types loyal to Saddam.
They need to be trained NOW because the ones who were the best trained aren’t going to go along with the new government, and those who were least trained were terrible. Really, its that simple.
Unless you’d like to back your OP up with a cite showing that the bulk of the Iraqi military and civilian police forces were ‘highly experienced’ of course.
I’m sure some of them have been…probably with mixed results (these guys did actually do torture and such BEFORE we came there, you know?). The bulk though probably form the core of the insurgency labled ‘Saddam loyalists’…or are in any number of other splinter groups happily killing each other and us off.
Why do you think Iraq would be better off with these guys back in the saddle? Sure, they had less chaos when Saddam and his merry men were in charge…but it was no bed of roses then either.
-XT
Just how many hours does it take to train one of these guys? It sounds as if this will be the excuse used for years.
Depends. Do you actually want them to be able to do anything once their training is done? Or just look good?
Let me guess…you wouldn’t happen to be one of those folks who think that all military people are knuckle dragging morons, and that basically its easy and anyone can do it…would you?
Its not something that can be done overnight. Its not that its necessarily HARD, mind you…but its alien to most people. Its a matter of getting the right mental mindset, the disipline, and the trust in one’s self and one’s buddies. And its an uphill battle to instill that esprit in a force as demoralized as the Iraqi military was…and one that was in the state it was in even BEFORE the invasion (and after the twin grinding war with Iran and its essential destruction during GW I).
Speculate Bob…just what do YOU think it would take to make such men an EFFECTIVE and LOYAL fighting force for the current Iraqi government? How easy do you expect such a task would be? What do you think it would require to do it? I’m curious.
-XT
Wait, why BobLibDem, are you theorizing that the Bush Administration is sabotaging the formation of an Iraqi police force and army? In order to extend the occupation? Huh?
The Iraq war is the single biggest failure of the Bush administration. It is highly unpopular. And why is that? Because we are losing. If we were winning then the war would be hugely popular and we’d all love our war hero president, even if lots of brave American soldiers lost their lives. Americans love a winner and cannot abide a loser. Even now, if Iraq acheived some sort of stability most people would give Bush a pass.
A functioning Iraqi army and police force wouldn’t end the occupation, rather it’s the only thing that will make continuing the occupation possible…because unless things change pretty soon there will be no support for the occupation left.
You assume that Bush and friends regard “unpopular” as “failure”. You also assume Bush knows it’s unpopular; given how isolated he has made himself from the real world, I wouldn’t assume that. And, you assume that it hasn’t accomplished what they wanted. From the Bush Admin’s viewpoint, it can be regarded as quite successful. Consider the benefits from their perspective :
Lowering of oil supply and rise in prices : Check.
Saddam out of power : Check.
World scared of us : Check.
Lots of money handed over to groups like Haliburton : Check.
Iraq as our military base : Check.
Far right Republican values imposed on Iraq ( tax laws, strong religious influence on society, etc ) : Check.
Lots of people hurt and killed : Check.
Terrorism strengthened ( they need the bogeyman ) : Check.
All in all, I expect they regard it as a victory.
Oh, for fuck’s sake. How long does it take to become a police officer or a soldier in NORTH AMERICA?
The Ontario Provincial Police pumps out fresh officers in a year. This is one of the world’s finest police services. I think anyone would be pleased if Iraqi cops were half as good as OPP cops. As for soldiers, the U.S. Marines run a 16-week basic, and advanced infantry school, IIRC, is three months. That’s to produce some of the finest young fighting men and women in the world.
So what’s the holdup?
I’m theorizing no such thing. Bush is stuck in place with no plan for getting out, and they’re using the feeble excuse of training the Iraqis as the reason for hanging in there. Unless those Iraqis wind up with Ph Ds, then they’re taking a lot longer than they need to get trained. Always in denial, Bush can’t face that he’s in without a clue of what to do. Personally, I think you could train these guys until the cows come home, it isn’t going to stop the civil war. What we’re asking these guys to do is get trained to be a target.
Darn right we are losing. If we had won, a lot of people would have supported it. But if we’re losing, we need to stop denying it and find a strategy to end this.
Oh, for fuck’s sake! Its comparing apples to oranges. Maybe you have noticed that things in Iraq aren’t exactly the same as in down town bumfuck, USA? Perhaps its slipped your notice?
In addition, training available to the average US soldier doesn’t have to be done in an environment where the recruits have to constantly fear for their lives? Maybe you missed that, ehe? Also, we don’t have to rebuild an army from scratch, not having had ours wiped out in wars of attrition with Iran, and then slammed in 2 successive wars with a major power, after which it was disbanded.
Used to live in Ottawa…and have been in Ontario as well. I dont recall anyone blowing up cars or leaving mines in front of the police recruiting areas, or specifically targetting police officers and their stations. Maybe I missed it? Could you link me some of these kinds of attack happening in Canada perhaps? Otherwise, does the term ‘comparing apples to oranges’ mean anything to you?
As for your contention that we can train Marines in 16-weeks of basic and an Army recruit in about 3 months, thats true enough (for basic training…you realize that there is advanced training for the combat arms I’m sure). Of course, we have had a contiguous military for something like 200 years, without having it take a major thump (even in Vietnam), or be disbanded. I’m guessing (just a guess mind you) that having your military wiped out and disbanded would have a detrimental effect on stuff like training, morale…all manner of things. Coupled with the fact that recruits are targets as well, and so ‘training’ is a bit more hazardous than to the average American (or Canadian), and the fact that THESE troops are going to have to hit the ground running, so to speak…
Gee…no idea really.
-XT
Okay, so provide me with the training curriculum for an Iraqi soldier. Is it three years long?
The U.S. Army is so hopefully inept and out of control of the situation they can’t guard a barracks and a parade square? Or why not fly them to Parris Island?
Is it going to be harder to train cops and soldiers in Iraq? I suppose. Three years, though? That would certainly be the longest military training period, well, eve. Exactly how long is it going to take?
Until a Democrat is in office; then he can take the blame.
Well, at least we are beyond the ‘for fuck’s sake’ stuff. 
I’d say that it will be a LONG time before the Iraqi military is fully up to scratch. One has but to look at the various military forces in the region (or throughout the world) to realize that creating an effective military isn’t exactly an easy or cost free excersize. And one as decimated as the Iraqi’s have will be even more difficult…even if we discount the horrendous conditions they are trying to build that force in. Its aweful difficult to train folks when they have death hanging over them…tends to make them not concentrate so well on training when they are constantly looking over their shoulders or waiting to get wacked.
Ball park on how long, given the current conditions? I’d have to waffle…depends on exactly what you want. An effective fighting force, trained in advanced urban and guerrilla warfare tactics? Maybe a decade in the current conditions. Parade ground soldiers that look good? Probably could have that already. Something in between? Something in between…
The US Army is very good at what it does…arguably in fact its the best in the world at what it does. Which is to destroy things. We are kind of asking it NOT to do that though. I don’t think the US being ‘inept’ comes into the situation in Iraq. Its a good comparison though. It would take a LONG time for the Iraqi military to get up to the level of where the US military is (even leaving aside the weapons we have that they won’t)…and even WE are having a spot of trouble there, ehe?
As for why not fly them to Paris Island for training (or somewhere else in the US presumably), I’d have to say cost and security concerns. I know it was kicked around at some point flying them out to a NATO facility to train…but the Euro’s didn’t want that either.
Um…we haven’t been seriousy training them for 3 years. Its only been 3 years since the invasion, and we didn’t exactly try and restart their military the second Baghdad fell, no?
-XT