Comments on LOTR:ROTK:EE

[jayjay]

@msmith537

That makes more sense than being killed by irony or estrogen.

I’ve seen strong men brought down by estrogen…

[Priam]

@jayjay

Of course, if you were feeling charitable, you could say that the weapons Aragorn gives them come from a hidden cache of ancient Arnorian armaments that have been preserved for millennia.

But didn’t they replace those weapons with Noldorin daggers at Lothlorien? I know Merry, at least, kept his through their time captured by the orcs. It’s never made clear if Aragorn retrieves Pippin’s from the pyre of orc corpses.

[muldoonthief]

@jsc1953

Not quite…Merry stabbed him in the leg first, incapacitating him. Eowyn delivers the fatal blow. So the prophecy was that he could not be killed by any living man, which does not include Women & Hobbits. He wasn’t killed by irony, but by legalese.

Was there an actual prophecy, or just his statement while battling Eowyn? My memory from the book:

Eowyn (still in disguise) is standing over a mortally injured Theoden. Witchking asks what she is doing. She replies something like “I will hinder you.” He replies “Fool! No man may hinder me!”. She pulls off her helmet showing her long golden hair, her ivory skin, her pale blue eyes… sorry, drifted for a moment. She says “I am no man, but a daughter of the Riddermark”. They fight, WK breaks her shield arm, gets ready to kill her, Merry stabs WK with the Arnorian dagger, Eowyn kills the WK, but sadly there is little rejoicing.

QtM are there any other LOTR or other Tolkein references to no man being able to kill the Witch King?

[well_he_s_back]

There is a mention in the Appendices regarding the Witch-king and the prophecy about no man will kill him - but I’m at work and my copy of the book is at home! So I can’t give the chapter and verse! And all the copies are checked out of the library here! Dang, I was hoping to come in with the answer …

[Grey]

When the Witch King was overthrown in the North Glorfindel made the prophecy to the young King of Gondor.

[Grey]

Damn. The future king of Gondor. link

[jayjay]

@Grey

Damn. The future king of Gondor. link

That link only goes to the front page of the Encyclopedia. I’m not sure how to grab the relevant URL in that frameset, but I’ll C&P the relevant passage:

After a long chase, the Witch-king himself fled into the dark of the falling night, and Glorfindel famously prophesied that he would not fall by the hand of man, as later proved true in the War of the Ring.

• From the entry for The Battle of Fornost

[jayjay]

Duh me. Right-click then click properties…

The link.

[muldoonthief]

Now that I’m home, here’s the actual quotes from ROTK (intervening text deleted):

‘Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.’

‘Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!’

‘But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.’

And of course, Eowyn’s eyes are grey (as the sea), not blue as I said above. I’m so embarrassed.

And you’re right jayjay, Grey and well he’s back, Glorfindel’s prophecy is in Appendix A, section (iv), Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion.

[Grey]

@jayjay

Duh me. Right-click then click properties…

The link.

Wouldn’t that figure?

[jsc1953]

@muldoonthief

And you’re right jayjay, Grey and well he’s back, Glorfindel’s prophecy is in Appendix A, section (iv), Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion.

Specifically,

Glorfindel, looking into the gathering dark, said “Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man* will he fall.”

*This prophecy protects the Bearer in confrontations against adult male members of the Houses of the Edain only, and affords no protection against Women, children of either gender, or Hobbits (Halflings, Holbytla, Perrianath). Protection results are unpredictable against Elves, Dwarves, Wizards, Ents, Tom Bombadils, Dragons, Balrogs, Orcs, Trolls, Uruk-hai, Olog-hai, Wargs or Nameless Things That Gnaw under the Roots of the Mountains. Contact your prophecy service provider.

[jayjay]

@Glorfindel (the Elf

Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man* will he fall.

Of course, nobody ever said that Ëarnur was very smart. The only thing that actually kept him from going after the Witch-King at that point was his horse balking. That galled him badly. And the Witch-King knew it.

Which is why the WK issued a challenge years later when both he and Ëarnur were back in their respective citadels and staring at each other across the Anduin valley. Only the advice of his Steward Mardil Voronwë kept him from marching across the valley bodily to answer the challenge.

Several years after that, the WK again issued a challenge to Ëarnur. This time, no one could stop him and he went to Minas Morgul. He was never seen again. Having no heirs, the line of Elendil was at an end in Gondor, and the Steward Mardil became the first Ruling Steward.

[Miss_Mapp]

@jayjay

Unless he’s going from the time it WAS renamed Minas Tirith, which happened in TA 2002. It would be roughly 1000 years from that time.

Just a quick update, now that I’m watching this a second time and can get an exact quote. What Gandalf actually says is, “A thousand years, this city has stood.”

I don’t think we can interpret this as referring to the name change; I think somebody got something wrong.

[Gorsnak]

Note that the prophecy doesn’t say that no man could harm the Witch King, only that no man would. Had a man been standing where Eowyn was after Merry knifed the bugger in the knee, His Nazgul Highness would still have been done for.

[jayjay]

@Miss Mapp

Just a quick update, now that I’m watching this a second time and can get an exact quote. What Gandalf actually says is, “A thousand years, this city has stood.”

I don’t think we can interpret this as referring to the name change; I think somebody got something wrong.

Are you sure it was “a thousand” and not “three thousand”? (I don’t have any of the DVDs (sacrilege!))

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

@jayjay

Are you sure it was “a thousand” and not “three thousand”? (I don’t have any of the DVDs (sacrilege!))

I heard it as “a thousand” too, when I listened.

Correlation between JRRT’s tale and PJ’s was not 100%. (big surprise). I’m glad he got as close as he did, but when he failed to do the back story on the House of Anarion (despite Denethor mentioning it) and the whole movie trilogy never mentioned Arnor once, what can you expect?

[jayjay]

@Qadgop the Mercotan

I heard it as “a thousand” too, when I listened.

Correlation between JRRT’s tale and PJ’s was not 100%. (big surprise). I’m glad he got as close as he did, but when he failed to do the back story on the House of Anarion (despite Denethor mentioning it) and the whole movie trilogy never mentioned Arnor once, what can you expect?

Yeah, I can shrug it off, too. I just wanted to make sure she hadn’t misheard.

I don’t feel anywhere near as betrayed by the Jackson films as I did by the film version of Dune, though, so I’m still happy with them.

[Miss_Mapp]

I checked the quote with the subtitles; it’s definitely “A thousand.”

[HubZilla]

Two things I found rather jarring:

1. Legolas killing Grima. He was way up on that tower and could not realistically harm anyone below. I guess I can excuse part of it since Gandalf wanted Saruman alive and Grima killing Saruman was getting in the way.

2. Aragorn killing the Mouth of Sauron. I cannot rationalize murdering an unarmed emissary, especially since he did nothing to threaten Aragorn physically. What were they thinking?

[KGS]

@HubZilla

2. Aragorn killing the Mouth of Sauron. I cannot rationalize murdering an unarmed emissary, especially since he did nothing to threaten Aragorn physically. What were they thinking?

He was pissed?

A continuity flaw I noticed, though: Once the Black Gates opened and the hordes of Mordor poured forth, the body of MoS (and his horse) are nowhere to be seen.