Commit a crime? Hide here.

[henrijohns]

The key is the employers. The saying that immigrants only come to work, why else, and they takes jobs citizens won’t completely ignores the fact that those employers pay far below the going rate, usually ignore taxes for illegals, and often take bribes, operate dangerous facilities, or run sweatshops, knowing illegals won’t report them.

[magellan01]

Miller,

Do you believe that the US (or any country) has the right to set its own immigration policy—specifically, limiting the number of immigrants they will allow in each year? If so, what should the government do with those who decide to sneak in? If those that sneak in (and are caught) just get their hand slapped and are allowed to stay in the country illegally, aren’t you letting these people subvert the government and the will of the people that elected its leaders?

[Clothahump]

@buttonjockey308

Based on this story here. Seems churches nation wide are going to be hiding criminals (illegal immigrants) until the rest of us figure out that we should just forgive people for their crimes, and just allow them to become citizens.

Now, we will discount the fact that the law of sanctuary is one dating back to medieval England, and not applicable to modern society despite the “movement” by American Churches…

The fact here is, illegal immigrants are criminals. Like thieves, or those that commit assaults, or any other crime.

Absolutely correct. And if churches are hiding them, they are accomplices in breaking the law and the priest/rabbi/minister/shaman/feathershaker/whoever that is in charge should be arrested as well.

[Liberal]

Jesus. Whatever happened to the liberal appreciation for civil disobedience?

[Clothahump]

@Liberal

Jesus. Whatever happened to the liberal appreciation for civil disobedience?

What civil disobediance? When did helping someone commit a felony become civil disobediance?

Federal Immigration and Nationality Act
Section 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(b)(iii)

“Any person who . . . encourages or induces an alien to . . . reside . . . knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such . . . residence is . . . in violation of law, shall be punished as provided . . . for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs . . . fined under title 18 . . . imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.”

Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):

A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:

* assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or

* encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or

* knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.

Penalties upon conviction include criminal fines, imprisonment, and forfeiture of vehicles and real property used to commit the crime. Anyone employing or contracting with an illegal alien without verifying his or her work authorization status is guilty of a misdemeanor. Aliens and employers violating immigration laws are subject to arrest, detention, and seizure of their vehicles or property. In addition, individuals or entities who engage in racketeering enterprises that commit (or conspire to commit) immigration-related felonies are subject to private civil suits for treble damages and injunctive relief.

http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/AidAbetUnlawfulSec8USC1324.html

[Liberal]

@Clothahump

What civil disobediance? When did helping someone commit a felony become civil disobediance?

When a politically expedient Congress enacted an unethical law that restrains people from exercising rights over their property. Hell, if they made picking your nose felonious, then nose picking would be a felony.

[buttonjockey308]

@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup

YOU are missing the point.

The point is whether or not the government has the power to punish.
Stipulated: it does.

The point is not whether the government is free to determine the proportionality of the punishment to the crime.
Stipulated: it does.

Our disagreement is to the proprtionality of the response to the offense.

The question is: In the face of a disproportionate (albeit legal) punishment to a crime NOT committed out of any intent to do harm, is it ethical to attempt to thwart the application of said punishment by extralegal means chosen specifically for their utility in thwarting that application and drawing national attention to the fact that the punishment far outweighs the crime?

Resolved: YES it is.

A disproportionate punishment to illegal immigration would be public flaggelation, life in prisonment, or the death penalty. Deportation is a venerated practice, and one that those who break the rules know is a possibility. Don’t cry to me when it happens. Sure, it sucks, and perhaps there needs to be another way, but if you break it, you bought it. IMO though, the punishment does NOT outweigh the crime. The punishment is in direct correlation with the crime: If someone decides to move into your house without your permission, you have the right to move them right the helll back out. It’s just that, on a grand scale. Further, how can you say that everyone that’s coming here illegally is doing so without the intent to harm? Hm?

Resolved: You CAN’T

@HSHP

One of the reasons why I wave the flag so proudly is because here our law is (or is at least intended to be) based on the preservation of liberty. If the law disproportionately damages one family or one man in the name of reducing the danger created by nine other men, then the law is flawed and must be corrected.

Yes, and as much as the spectre of 9/11 is a cause to roll-eyes for the pro-illegal immigrant crowd that liberty now has a higher price than it did on 9/10. Security is not as important as liberty, and liberty is not as important as security. Mr. Jefferson never, I assume, envisioned the kind of world in which we now live. It’s idyllic to believe that we could live safely in a world, hell, in a country where the exchange of liberty for security would not take place, but it’s not realistic.

@HSHP

I submit to you that we are in such a correction period now.

I further submit that not all correction happens via due process of law, nor has it traditionally, nor should it.

I further submit to you that your ascribing knowledge of the law to illegal immigrants is disingenuous and creates false ground on which to stand.

To wit, administrative law in our nation has provisions whereby standard hearings can be suspended if the petitioner in question believes (and can prove) that the interests of fairness would not be served by initial administration hearings. How many illegal immigrants (not even as a whole, but who might qualify for it) do you think are aware of this?

Perhaps.

True.

Don’t buy it. Following the law isn’t disengenuous.

Probably none, and that’s not a concern of mine. I’m already a citizen. If I were to, say, want to become a Dutch citizen, I would know before I became one HOW to become one, and go about the process. BUT, you’ll say, what about the poor, uneducated illegal? How ever will he be able to understand these rules and laws.
My answer? Don’t care. The last thing we need is someone who can’t figure a way to understand the process. Now, I’m NOT saying they should understand our complicated legal system, but what I AM saying is that if you’re not even smart or resourceful enough to find a way to deal with the system, I’m not sure we want you here in the first place

[buttonjockey308]

@Liberal

Jesus. Whatever happened to the liberal appreciation for civil disobedience?

I appreciate civil disobedience as much as the next guy, but the cause here ain’t a grand one. This isn’t civil rights, or woman’s suffrage, hell, this isn’t even gay marriage, this is a potential threat to the American way of life (beyond security) and I will again point to This Immigration and Gumballs video, (endorsed no less, by the father of Earth Day) as proof.

[Miller]

@buttonjockey308

I appreciate civil disobedience as much as the next guy, but the cause here ain’t a grand one. This isn’t civil rights, or woman’s suffrage, hell, this isn’t even gay marriage, this is a potential threat to the American way of life (beyond security) and I will again point to This Immigration and Gumballs video, (endorsed no less, by the father of Earth Day) as proof.

“A threat to the American way of life?” Hmm. When was the last time I heard that argument being used as a reason to oppose a particular political issue?

Oh, that’s right. It was during the gay marriage debate.

And before that, it was civil rights.

And before that, it was women’s sufferage.

Now, I’m not saying that you’re morally equivalent with those people, but pretty much every single progressive change in this country has been decried as, “a threat to the American way of life.” And to my knowledge, every single time they were wrong. But, I’m sure, this time is the exception.

[Miller]

@magellan01

Miller,

Do you believe that the US (or any country) has the right to set its own immigration policy—specifically, limiting the number of immigrants they will allow in each year?

How do you mean, “Right?” They certainly have that ability. North Korea has the “right” to clamp it’s borders down tighter than a nun’s pussy, and to hell with the human cost of such a policy. That doesn’t mean they are “right” to do so.

If so, what should the government do with those who decide to sneak in?

If they’ve committed no other serious crime, a modest fine to be waived upon completion of the appropriate legal measures necessary to ensure legal residence. Basically, the equivalent of a fix-it ticket for driving with a busted tail light, which is the approptiate level of severity for a “crime” of this magnitude.

If those that sneak in (and are caught) just get their hand slapped and are allowed to stay in the country illegally, aren’t you letting these people subvert the government and the will of the people that elected its leaders?

Sure, much the same way that cops who look the other way when someone’s five miles over the speed limit are “subverting the government and the will of the people that elected its leaders.” Just speaking personally, my anus simply isn’t tight enough to get worked up over either legal violation. Of course, you may vary your mileage freely, if you so desire.

[buttonjockey308]

@Miller

“A threat to the American way of life?” Hmm. When was the last time I heard that argument being used as a reason to oppose a particular political issue?

Oh, that’s right. It was during the gay marriage debate.

And before that, it was civil rights.

And before that, it was women’s sufferage.

Now, I’m not saying that you’re morally equivalent with those people, but pretty much every single progressive change in this country has been decried as, “a threat to the American way of life.” And to my knowledge, every single time they were wrong. But, I’m sure, this time is the exception.

OK, perhaps a poor choice of words, but no less true, if that video is to be believed (using US census data and all).

So instead, I’ll say this: Unchecked and excess immigration is a threat to our environment, our infrastructure, our economy, our political process, and our security. Now, at least to me, all of those things combine to create what is, “The American Way of Life ™.”

People flooding over our borders at rates beyond what we can reasonably accomodate, and prepare to accomodate in the future will eventually destroy what we have now, and turn it into something wholly unrecognizable, which is not necessarily a bad thing, because sometimes change is good, but this kind of change will not be good.

To Wit:

The average American generates 4.9 pounds of garbage every day. Round that up to 5 lbs for ease of cypherin’. Multiply that by 300,000,000 and you get 1,500,000,000 pounds of trash. Every. Single. Day. Of course the real numbers aren’t an average, and this does not account for recycling, but even if those numbers were halved, that’s a LOT of garbage, and if we take in a million people a year, that’s an additional 5 million pounds a day. We’re gonna run out of places to put it all. It’ll ruin OUR environment, it’ll cloud OUR skies and choke OUR resources.

Negating security, this is an issue that we can’t afford NOT to take control of.