The problem with this is that plenty of people who “sincerely tried to follow Jesus” then went on to pick and choose from the bible in order to justify what they wanted to do anyway as the will of Jesus. They are no safer to be around than the hypocrites.
But why should we take your word for who is or isn’t a “real Christian”? Every Christian who has done nasty to his fellow man has used the same ‘No True Christian’ argument to disavow the evil some previous Christian has done. He then went on to commit his own nastiness. What makes you different?
I’ll stick to this definition: “Anyone who claims to follow Christ is a Christian.”
And I will expect as much evil from those who claim to be “True Christians” as I expect from everyone else. History supports me in this decision.
You say that even after I show Jesus is quoted as saying otherwise?
This absolutely has to be trolling for attention. Even an idiot couldn’t truly believe something so idiotic. It absolutely, and absurdly leads directly to this conclusion:
As many of you don’t know… (and a few of you do, since I’ve seen you at the video conferences…) I have been a long time disciple and “TRUE” follower of Cheshire Human for some time now.
It was determined at the last meeting that we would start promoting “the TRUE WAY of Cheshire Human.” We are producing a book of the same title. (subtitled: how to lie, cheat, and steal your way to success and getting what you want.) If you order now we can include “the History of Powerful People who Murdered Their Way to the Top. (and how you can too.)” At no extra cost. All this for just $10.99.
For just $1.00 we will send you a pamphlet of all of Cheshire Human’s unconventional but totally true beliefs.
Now, be advised he is totally going to deny it. He has to… It was all agreed at the last conference. For legal reasons, (among others,) he can’t admit openly that he believes any of these completely anti-social, (but time tested and totally verifiable,) ways that people have flaunted, and manipulated the law and social norms for thier own benefit… (AND totally got their way.)
In fact the first chapter, (sneak peek bonus for you,) is titled: Why you can’t ever admit that you believe this!
That’s the first way stupid people get caught.
So, Cheshire Human can’t admit to these beliefs, but rest assured, it all works, and he total lives by it. And since I was chosen to promote his belief system… (as one of the most loyal disciples…) I can’t actually ever do any lying, cheating, stealling, or murder, because I would get caught. So, I am constrained to living what society believes is a moral life while promoting Cheshire Human’s TRUE WAY!
He can’t be seen collecting any money for it either or it would verify to authorities that this is his idea. So, he will not be admitting to any of this, or collecting any money. I will be producing and promoting the books and pamphlets on my own, with his continued guidance, with the money to promote the TRUE WAY, and to compensate me that I can’t actually lie cheat or steal to get ahead. And Cheshire Human will be denying it at every turn. Although he did say that you could privately message him with all the pictures of penis that you want. I don’t need any of that, but he seems to be into it. Money to me, pictures of penis to Cheshire Human. This is the TRUE WAY!..
And recall that anyone who claims to follow anything is a follower.
[QUOTE=Cheshire Human]
“Anyone who claims to follow Christ is a Christian.”
[/QUOTE]
So I am a follower of Cheshire Human and advocate of HIS WAY! unless he ever relinquishes that above belief. And admits that it was idiotic in the first place. If he ever comes back to deny HIS TRUE WAY, or to say that “anyone who follows Christ is a Christian” again, it will just be confirmation that I am his true disciple.
Of course, He could just be a troll: From his profile.
May flies, squid, octopus, pacific salmon. What do these creatures have in common? They often die soon after reproducing. Even humans have spent most of our history averaging only a 35 year life span. Just long enough to get a few children raised to self-sufficiency.
You have chosen long term survival as the goal. Not only that, but you have decided that it is the goal for everyone. You have set yourself up as god. Look everyone! The question of god has been decided. God exists, and it is Czarcasm, (pun definitely intended.)
Long term survival can’t even be the goal unless short term survival is assured.
Many dictators have shown that you can get long term survival while getting everything you want with a loyal army, secret police force, etc. that are getting what they want.
It is totally disingenuous to claim that people who try to get ahead by lying, stealing and murder only ever treat people like that, that they never try to do it strategically so that they don’t get caught and it that it actually does enhance their long term survival. No thief or murderer steals or murders all the time.
It’s totall possible to have a tribe of people you treat well and trust, while you all raid others. The Vikings; the Romans; the Mongols, etc.
Saddam Hussein would still be in power if he was slightly less insane, or had at least kept his atrocities in his own country. As it was, his “short term” survival was 69 years. 25 years as leader or defacto leader of Iraq, and 10 years of power as a high official before that. 69 years, 35 with tremendous power. His son Uday used to kidnap women off the street to rape and never faced any problems for that. They could have still been in that position without stopping their atrocities.
(Oh, and didn’t I see you on our last “Cheshire Human’s TRUE WAY” video conference? Deny it if I did. Then I will know it was you.)
Come on. Some of these positions have to be trolling for attention. I really find it hard to seriously believe people could believe this stuff… But, Czarcasm has declared what the goal is for everyone… Czarcasm is god… so it must be true.
If you remember the premise was to give a moral instruction. Give a reason for to do it. But provide no purpose for it. So, it made sense that you would try to infer a reason to follow an instruction but not actually give one, since that would be suppling a purpose to follow it. As I said, it can’t be done.
And if you recall
[QUOTE=ch4rl3s]
“since it is more likely someone will treat me how I want to be treated if I treat them how they want to be treated… in order to increase the chance they will treat me well, (statement of purpose,)… you should, treat them how you want to be treated, (moral statement. the way you achieve your purpose.)”
You didn’t say any of that that would have made your statement any sort of moral instruction.
[/QUOTE]
I already showed what it meant if that was added to make it an instruction and a reason. I already dealt with your statement as you finally wrote it by assuming that was what you intended. And showing why it made sense that you didn’t actually do it to start with. Because it fails to support your belief if you do.
If you actually provide a moral instruction and a reason for people to follow it, you show that there is a purpose behind every moral instruction… And FAIL to demonstrate a morality that isn’t tied to a purpose. Like you just did, now.
If you try to not give a purpose, you do what you did first. Which is either FAIL to even provide a moral instruction, or FAIL to give any reason for anyone to follow it. You failed at both.
What percentage of my final grade is this essay question worth?
[/QUOTE]
You mean aside from proving your point? Or showing that you have a valid reason for your belief? What about the satisfaction of having a logically supportable belief? either show that you can provide a moral principle that isn’t tied to purpose, OR… change your mind if your belief can’t be supported…
What about not just what you would gain, but what you lose if you don’t. Credibility. What credibility do you have if you can’t do what you claim is possible… BUT won’t change your mind? Isn’t that what you think people who believe in god do? refuse to change their mind even when they can’t support their position? Even in the face of facts to the contrary? You now have facts to the contrary… Show yourself worthy of respect and credibility… Now, in just such similar situations, other atheists have claimed things like: “I have plenty of credibility, all these other people believe me…” and then they go off spouting the same unsupportable beliefs, never looking at whether they can support them and never realizing they are what they claim to despise.
You can imagine you are right without being able to prove it; lose credibility even with yourself…(which is a total fail.) OR you can prove it… Or failing that, admit to yourself and others that you can change your beliefs when the facts demand it. (both of these last two are success, by the way.)
I don’t see it as any particular portion of your final grade. I see it as a pass/fail proposition. This is a test of your ability to think logically. And as I said, it’s a simple test. You may think it’s a joke, and that your question was a joke, but it really is a test of you being a logical human being, someone worth debating with. As of right now. I can’t see that you are. I have to think that you are being deliberately obtuse to bait me into wasting my time. Trolling for attention so to speak. I can’t see a reason to spend my time with this unless you are someone worth debating…
And it’s a simple test. Either you can show a moral principle that you can demonstrate must be followed that is not tied to purpose. Or you change your mind and admit that all moral principles have a purpose. That would make you a reasonable human being. One worthy of credibility.
Just like I ended up telling Der Trihs after much frustration with this, I will not respond to anything that does not address the question, anymore.
Can you show a moral principle that you can demonstrate must be followed that isn’t tied to purpose.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Treat others as you would want to be treated , and they are more likely to do the same to you, and everybody survives a bit longer. Run that through your English-to-Freud Babelfish program and get back to me, o.k.?
[/QUOTE]
Finally, you actually provide a moral principle. But YOU chose the purpose “everyone survives a bit longer.” That is your purpose. You can’t demonstrate that it must be the purpose for everyone. FAIL. Try again, or change your mind… (or you could wander off without doing either and show yourself to be unworthy of credibility or respect.)
you get a response to this only because it was posted before my last response. And because it shows obvious trolling behavior, being obtuse to get some attention.
A logical person could see some connection. So, FAIL. Obvious troll.
Do you have anything else? Or should i just ignore you completely?
And every other Christian claims to be following him, too, with Bible verses quoting Jesus to back them up. (“I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes unto the Father, except by Me” should be expositive.)
What makes you so different that I should go by your judgment on who is a “True Christian”? Even the Bible says “The Devil himself quotes scripture, for his own purposes.”
Not trolling at all. BUT, You all but outright call me an idiot, here, very likely in violation of GD rules. I’ll let the mods make that call. Certainly, accusing me of trolling does violate GD rules, but again, I’ll let the mods make the call. I won’t even report it. Pointing out your [redacted due to GD rules violation] is more fun.
What statement of Jesus’ justifies those accusations as “love your neighbor as yourself”? I can’t think of a one, and I’ve read all the Gospels, and most of Paul’s epistles, in the original language. How do you square that behavior with your being a “True Christian”? Personally, I’m not seeing it. I guess you’re just another hypocrite, spouting your interpretation, and calling anyone who has a different one a “False Christian” out of convenience. Color me surprised.
<size tags snipped for obnoxiousness>
I’m glad someone’s been paying attention to my wisdom. Most people just ignore me.
All hail me! It’s just too bad no one is actually falling for my scam and sending the money.
Yep. As per the rules I allegedly set up, I hereby and forthwith deny these calumnies. Oh, and BTW the words I underlined in your post, here, should be flouted, not flaunted, and thier should be their. If you are going to quote my super-secret instructions to my acolytes, you could at least quote them correctly. Sheesh. The quality of Disciples we get, these days. It’s enough to test the patients of Christ, himself.
DENY it? Hell! According to what you posted, I should be ENCOURAGING it. Somehow, though, I find your faith in me strangely disappointing. I’m still not convinced that you represent “True Christianity”, let alone “True CheshireHumanity”. The monkey is pink. Kill the pink monkey! Followers, Attend. KILL THE PINK MONKEY!!!
Of course, He could just be a troll: From his profile.
[/QUOTE]
Let’s quote it again, in case anyone missed it:
InterestsEdit Value
My hobby is “Pissing-off” others. I flunked “plays well with others” in kindergarden.
OccupationEdit Value
Self-anointed blasphemer of YOUR chosen god, whomever that might be (unless it’s mine). I also try to disappear leaving only a smile, just like the Cheshire Cat.
Shit, you really stretched for that, didn’t you. It’s still in my profile, and won’t be changed. I stand behind it. I won’t dare stand behind you.
You’re not allowed to accuse other people of trolling in this forum, and you did it repeatedly over your last couple of posts. This is a formal warning not to do it again.
AWWW. Ya had to go ruin it. Bet he can’t come back with a rational response to my post. Jesus would want him to, but I bet he can’t even fulfill the requirements of his own religion. Oh, well. The followers of CheshireHumanism usually turn out to be useless. I don’t know why I continue to bother.
And – as happened in this thread --folks can trump that with a quick “So what? That’s irrelevant.”
I may have missed your response to that one, or maybe you missed the other fella’s rejoinder amidst the rest. Either way: how is it a trump to point out what some X was created for? I don’t see it as important; possibly you choose to see it as all-important, but – hey, that’s just your choice, right?
I’m sorry. I did not know that rule. I will try to be more careful. Now that I know, I can apologize and change my behavior. Question though; is trolling allowed if pointing it out isn’t? I’m guessing you can’t really stop that sort of behavior, since it’s kind of hard to tell when it’s actually true.
No, it’s not allowed, and we do moderate for it when we think it’s warranted. For the record, I didn’t think any of the posts you responded to came anywhere close to trolling - but even if they were, that’s the staff’s call to make.
So, is the Devil a true Christian then? Why wouldn’t humans also quote scripture for their own purposes?
I didn’t say “take my word for it.” What I will say is that I can point out where some people claiming to be Christians are obviously not following Christ’s example. But, I can’t always say they aren’t true Christians, though. But, sometimes I’m quite sure that they aren’t following Christ in any meaningful way, and I feel confidant saying they aren’t really Christians. I can point that out. You can read the Bible and make the choice for yourself… But, making that choice by saying “well, they’re all Christians if they say they are,” is the stupid, non-thinking, non-logical way to do it.
I’m sorry. I probably should have said that it was an idiotic thing to say. The distinction being that even smart people can do stupid things. I will admit that. I admit I made a mistake in saying you were trolling.
If a hate filled, evil, murderous man comes to follow Christ that doesn’t mean that he is suddenly perfect. That doesn’t mean he isn’t going to react to various situations with hate, or even violence. Christians make mistakes. That doesn’t make them hypocrites. I aspire to a standard I know I can’t hope to live up to. At every turn Jesus explained to the people who thought they were living the standard, that it was actually much stricter, that they couldn’t fulfill it, but they could be forgiven. That, and this is the point, they weren’t earning their salvation themselves.
And Jesus was VERY HARSH on those who thought they were living up to the standard on their own. And very merciful to those who realized they needed help and forgiveness. So, it isn’t “not living up to the standard” that makes you a hypocrite or worthy of harsh words. Jesus had harsh words for those who were holding to a fairly high standard, and was merciful to those who couldn’t even live up to that. What do you make of that?
It’s more important to be willing to admit you are wrong and try to do better.
Maybe I previously misspoke… Saying that “anyone who claims to follow Christ is a Christian” is an idiotic thing to say or believe, and it would not be loving to let you live in such ignorance.
What do you mean? I already have 79 orders for books and pamphlets.
I must applaud you for a marvelous response to my accusations. That was wonderful. And you are completely correct on my grammar and spelling errors, mistakes do occur. We all make them…
[backpedal] EXCEPT YOU OF COURSE. Sorry, I almost accused you of making spelling or grammar errors. That can’t happen…[/backpedal]
Since you are the marvelous Cheshire Human, and I am but a disciple, I know this is correct (and not a mistake that I should point out.) You must literally mean that it would test “the sick people,” (the patients,) who came to Jesus for healing.
You make no mistakes. (Except for the parts where you are deliberately making silly statements for me to speak against. But those are not mistakes they are deliberate misstatements to further your purpose.) All hail Cheshire Human. (Buy our book.)
That is a satire that makes a point directly related to his stated belief.
If it is legitimate to call everyone who claims to follow Christ a Christian no matter what they say or do otherwise…
Then it is legitimate to say anyone is a follower of Cheshire Human who claims to be.
His stated position leads to that. His stated position leads to the conclusion that I am a follower of Cheshire Human if I claim to be.
If I am not, then his statement must be wrong.
How about if I just say that rather than continuing with the satire itself?
The problem is that the “you are deliberately making silly statements for me to speak against” is also pretty close to an accusation of trolling. Consider your point made (I think you posted four examples) and call it a day.
Technically, yes. The Devil believes in Christ, so is a Christian in some senses of the word. And humans do quote scripture for their own purposes. Hence the problem.
And those people can, and do, also point to bible verses that say they are following Christ. And you are free to reject anyone else as a “True Christian” if you like. Just as I’m free to reject your judgment on it. There is also nothing illogical about saying “screw it. I don’t care about their personal interpretation. I’m not interested enough to give them a chance to bother me with their take on the bible’s meaning.” I could spend all my time reading the bible and comparing it to various people’s interpretation of it (leaving no time for anything else) and not cover 10% of the interpretations real people actually put to it. It’s not worth my time. “They are Christians if they say they are” is a convenient shortcut. I just don’t expect any particular behavior from them just because they claim to be Christian.
Here, you make the error of assuming I don’t know about Christianity merely because I’m not now a Christian. I used to be one. That’s why I made a point of learning Greek and reading it in the original. I also came to reject it as useless nonsense. You’re free to keep following it, according to your interpretation, and I’m free to reject your judgment on the interpretation of others who also claim to be Christian. Nothing at all illogical about that. It’s just a shorthand way of saying “I’m not going to waste my time examining your (or anyone else’s) particular brand of nonsense”
At this point, I’ll make Marley happy and just drop it.
That was part of the satire, and posted before you told me to stop it. Sorry.
As part of the satire, he was supposed to say silly things while I spoke “the TRUE WAY of Cheshire Human.” I have stopped the satire.
You already know a good deal of the bible apparently, but still choose to use the shortcut… It is the thoughtless, even stupid, way, since saying the Devil is a follower of Christ is a useless definition. You already know enough to say that they aren’t all followers of Christ, but CHOOSE to ignore it. That is willful ignorance. That is the stupid way to do it.
All you have to say is, “not everyone who claims to follow Christ does,” and then, (as you already did…) “I just don’t expect any particular behavior from them just because they claim to be Christian.” That is just as simple and far less thoughtless.
Are you offended because I say what you are doing is the stupid way to do it?
in Matt 23 Jesus speaks out against those who know the word but don’t use it. At least 6 times he calls the teachers of the law and the Pharisees hypocrites. He says they are full of hypocricy and wickedness. He calls them blind guides, , blind men, blind fools. He says they travel over land and sea to make a convert, then make him twice as much the child of hell as they are. He says they are like whitewashed tombs full of dead man’s bones.
in Luke 11 there is a similar speach at a dinner a Pharisee asked him to.
He did not shy away from offending people.
In John 8 he tells the people around him they are children of the devil. in Mark 7 he asks his disciples “are you so dull?” in Luke 24 he calls them foolish.
If that is your shortcut, then this is all I need to say.
[QUOTE=ch4rl3s]
If it is legitimate to call everyone who claims to follow Christ a Christian no matter what they say or do otherwise…
Then it is legitimate to say anyone is a follower of Cheshire Human who claims to be.
His stated position leads to that. His stated position leads to the conclusion that I am a follower of Cheshire Human if I claim to be.
If I am not, then his statement must be wrong.
[/QUOTE]
And you have nothing worth saying to me as long as you choose to be that willfully ignorant. If you know about Christianity, you should know better. If you know about logic, you should know better.
Excuse me, but those are just the people Jesus spoke the harshest to.
As for myself, I am not going to be sorry that I spoke harshly, bluntly, or said it was foolish to believe what you do, or that you might be offended by that.
But, (Matt 5:21-22,) I do need to be careful how I do it. And I do apologize if I came too close to actually calling you an idiot. That belief is foolish, I have no need to say that you are. That offence I apologize for.
Oh, and I was legitimately impressed with how you responded to my satire. I laughed.
And, I hope pointing out your “patients” mistake didn’t offend either. I simply found it funny that you appeared to make a mistake as well. I was not offended when you pointed out “flouted/flaunted” and “their/thier,” even though you said “patients” in the same paragraph. I don’t worry about a few grammar/spelling mistakes when the meaning comes across, so I don’t mind if they are pointed out.
It’s just too bad no one is actually falling for my scam and sending the money. 
