confederate memorial day

[Accidental_Martyr]

@Doyle

Louisiana is one of the states mentioned in the Wiki article. I’ve lived here my entire life and have never heard of Confederate Memorial Day being observed here or in any other southern state.

I’ve lived in Alabama my entire life and I don’t ever remember hearing about Confederate Memorial Day. Maybe I just haven’t been paying attention all this time.

[Spoke]

@Accidental_Martyr

I’ve lived in Alabama my entire life and I don’t ever remember hearing about Confederate Memorial Day. Maybe I just haven’t been paying attention all this time.

Yeah, it’s not like anybody makes anything of it (other than maybe a handful of SCV members, who are apt to plant little Confederate flags at soldiers’ graves). In fact, I doubt that anyone other than an SCV member could tell you the date of this alleged holiday.

Georgia quietly did away with the statutory version of Confederate Memorial Day in 1984, though I think the governor still issues a proclamation about it every year, just to keep the SCV happy.

It’s certainly nothing to get all worked up about, when hardly anybody even notices the day’s existence. But of course, some of our Northern friends are going to gin up some outrage mainly because they like to use the South as the whipping boy for all the nation’s ills.

[Captain_Amazing]

@Human_Action

So am I. I used this article, and counted Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana, Missouri, Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, Georgia, Kentucky, West Virginia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Florida, and Virginia as “Southern”. Feel free to double-check my counting.

And if you limit it to the states of the old Confederacy (without Missouri, Kentucky, or West Virginia, you get 97 Republicans.

[Measure_for_Measure]

@Spoke

Yeah, it’s not like anybody makes anything of it (other than maybe a handful of SCV members, who are apt to plant little Confederate flags at soldiers’ graves). In fact, I doubt that anyone other than an SCV member could tell you the date of this alleged holiday.

Georgia quietly did away with the statutory version of Confederate Memorial Day in 1984, though I think the governor still issues a proclamation about it every year, just to keep the SCV happy.

I understand that the SCV does more than tend to gravesites nowadays. Wikipedia: In the 1990s, disagreements over the purpose of the organization emerged within the SCV. At issue was a shift in the SCV’s mission from “maintaining gravestones, erecting monuments and studying Civil War history” to more issue-centric concerns. The SCV’s new concerns included “fight[ing] for the right to display Confederate symbols everywhere from schools to statehouses”.

…The Civil War historian James M. McPherson has associated the SCV with the neo-confederate movement and in 2007 described board members of the Museum of the Confederacy in Richmond, Virginia as “undoubtedly neo-Confederate”. It’s an organization with 30,000 members. I’m unaware of an analogous organization in the North. Sons of Confederate Veterans - Wikipedia

[Human_Action]

@Measure_for_Measure

I’m unaware of an analogous organization in the North.

Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War

[Measure_for_Measure]

@Human_Action

Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War

Ok. I’ll note that membership is about 1/5th the size and that SUVCW limits its activities to ones that don’t cause outrage and splits among its membership. Recall that the North had a free population two and a half the size of the South back in 1860.

[Human_Action]

@Measure_for_Measure

Ok. I’ll note that membership is about 1/5th the size and that SUVCW limits its activities to ones that don’t cause outrage and splits among its membership. Recall that the North had a free population two and a half the size of the South back in 1860.

I’m hard-pressed to think of activities that would cause outrage and splits amongst its membership. Certainly no one has to fight to fly the Union flag, and I’m unaware of any Union equivalent to the Lost Cause movement, history being written by the victors and all. There’s no real source of controversy with the Union cause: they were right, they won, and they abolished slavery. What dissention there was is long gone.

SUVCW is smaller, but that’s unsurprising. The Union states were not a regional bloc with a distinct identity; Minnesota, Maine, California, and Kansas don’t have nearly as much in common as Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, and South Carolina do, in terms of history and demographics. Further, the Confederacy suffered worse losses in proportion to its population, had a greater proportion of its people fight, was the host to the majority of the fighting (thus having damaged infrastructure), and suffered more civilian privation.

An useful analogy might be the Vietnam War. While there are many more Americans, the impact of the war on the average American was much less than the impact on the average Vietnamese.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

@Human_Action

If you think the GOP is bad for America, or that the South is a place ripe for political change you’d approve of, that’s fine. I objected to your pinning the blame for the shutdown, or obstruction, or Republican nonsense in general, on Southern voters in particular. The numbers just don’t back it up.

110 GOP representatives is plenty to put a stop to the shutdown. And remember, the shutdown is, by definition, not about majorities, no? Besides that, insofar as opposition to the ACA and the Medicare expansion have racist motivations, I still think the South is the base for that kind of sentiment, along with being the base of the GOP overall.

But understand that this tactic is a means to an end. Put the South in the reticle and bring the shutdown to the people there. If you feel that amounts to too blunt an instrument or is poorly aimed, well the population of the South really should have considered that before they voted representatives into office who gleefully declared their intention to shut down the government before the election.

And besides all that, as a matter of practicality I think this tactic will be most effective enacted against the South, and still more effective if limited solely to the South. The Western states are for the most part too sparsely populated for things like interstate blockage protests to have much effect, while the South is one contiguous, often densely-populated area (Ohio can be like that, but I think if we leave them alone their GOP reps will get voted out anyway). Also, the unfairness of it is an inherent part of the strategy- maybe it will force that population to get on the horn with the rest of the House representatives and demand to know why they allow this to continue.

In this view, it is the South’s job to confront the rest of the GOP base. I propose only one way out of the reticle for the South- end the shutdown, allow the Medicare expansions, and end your abuse and neglect of your poor and minorities. We can’t afford a debt default because of sentiments attached to but not including Confederate Memorial Day, or the South’s ‘othering’ of themselves/everyone else with their persistent view of the rest of the nation as ‘Northerners’. Ultimately it’d be nice to heal the nation of these worthless divisions. Time to get over the past and quit hatin’, South.

Ever heard this? Read this?

[Measure_for_Measure]

Furthermore the SUVCW only got a membership boost after the PBS’s Civil War series. Politically, it’s an nonentity unlike the SCV.

Admittedly I had not heard of either organization until I encountered this thread.

Incidentally, I should note that I have never lived in the US South for any extended period of time. Wikipedia’ entry on the confederate flag colors my perceptions though. I opine that it’s remarkable that a flag representing the military defense of slavery 150 years ago still has a sufficiently strong fan base to permit its continued official retention in 2-10 states. Zoe’s thoughts are still worth bearing in mind, as are the reality checks provided by Human Action and others.

[The_Second_Stone]

I love a good thread criticizing the War of Treason to preserve the ownership, oppression and enslavement of human beings for the benefit of the 1 percent. The confederacy and the civil war were fought over whether slavery would expand or die. Read the articles of secession of each state and see that they fought over the right to own human beings. And, in Southern style, “bless their hearts for telling the truth.”

[Human_Action]

@Try2B_Comprehensive

110 GOP representatives is plenty to put a stop to the shutdown. And remember, the shutdown is, by definition, not about majorities, no?

124 is also plenty.

[QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive]
Besides that, insofar as opposition to the ACA and the Medicare expansion have racist motivations, I still think the South is the base for that kind of sentiment, along with being the base of the GOP overall.
[/quote]

Yeah, I’m not going to accept that racism has much of anything to do with opposition to ACA or Medicare expansions (beyond, at most, fueling anti-Obama sentiment, which is quite distinct from trying to keep down African-Americans) without some sort of compelling evidence. It being related to general Republican opposition to most federal entitlement programs, big government, and fear of socialized medicine, seems far more likely, and explains why opposition is found wherever the GOP is. Wyoming, for example, is 0.8% African-American and 91% white…who exactly would be “kept down” by opposing ACA & Medicare in Wyoming? Poor whites. And yet Wyoming’s Senate and Governor opposes it.

[QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive]
But understand that this tactic is a means to an end. Put the South in the reticle and bring the shutdown to the people there. If you feel that amounts to too blunt an instrument or is poorly aimed, well the population of the South really should have considered that before they voted representatives into office who gleefully declared their intention to shut down the government before the election.

And besides all that, as a matter of practicality I think this tactic will be most effective enacted against the South, and still more effective if limited solely to the South. The Western states are for the most part too sparsely populated for things like interstate blockage protests to have much effect, while the South is one contiguous, often densely-populated area (Ohio can be like that, but I think if we leave them alone their GOP reps will get voted out anyway). Also, the unfairness of it is an inherent part of the strategy- maybe it will force that population to get on the horn with the rest of the House representatives and demand to know why they allow this to continue.

In this view, it is the South’s job to confront the rest of the GOP base. I propose only one way out of the reticle for the South- end the shutdown, allow the Medicare expansions, and end your abuse and neglect of your poor and minorities.
[/quote]

You’re conflating two distinct things, again: 1) The South, by virtue of demographics, population density, or whatever, is a good choice for political action of whatever kind, and 2) the South is to blame for a political problem of whatever kind.

[QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive]
We can’t afford a debt default because of sentiments attached to but not including Confederate Memorial Day, or the South’s ‘othering’ of themselves/everyone else with their persistent view of the rest of the nation as ‘Northerners’. Ultimately it’d be nice to heal the nation of these worthless divisions.
[/quote]

Is that what’s motivating the 124 non-Southern Republican Representatives? Confederate Memorial Day? Since the answer is “no”, maybe, just maybe, this isn’t a Southern problem.

[QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive]
Time to get over the past and quit hatin’, South.
[/quote]

That’s a two-way street, of course. There’s a surging river of hate directed at the South, which fuels the division and otherness you complain about.

[QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive]
Ever heard this? Read this?
[/QUOTE]

No, and no.

[Human_Action]

@Measure_for_Measure

Incidentally, I should note that I have never lived in the US South for any extended period of time. Wikipedia’ entry on the confederate flag colors my perceptions though. I opine that it’s remarkable that a flag representing the military defense of slavery 150 years ago still has a sufficiently strong fan base to permit its continued official retention in 2-10 states. Zoe’s thoughts are still worth bearing in mind, as are the reality checks provided by Human Action and others.

A flag representing the military conquest of the Holy Land and slaughtering Muslims 824 years ago still has a sufficiently strong fan base to permit its continued retention in the same fashion as the Confederate flag: regional pride (and in that case, nationalism). I’m fairly sure that people who display the St. George cross at football games aren’t advocating for war on Islam, though, as with the stars and bars, there’s an unsavory racist fringe that uses it too.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

@Human_Action

124 is also plenty.

Erm, my point is that a minority in the House is extorting the nation.

Yeah, I’m not going to accept that racism has much of anything to do with opposition to ACA or Medicare expansions (beyond, at most, fueling anti-Obama sentiment, which is quite distinct from trying to keep down African-Americans) without some sort of compelling evidence.

Here ya go.
Who is he talking about? This guy: Virginia GOP Nominee: ‘Great Society’ Programs Worse For Black Families Than Slavery

Virginia Republicans’ controversial nominee for Lieutenant Governor argued on Wednesday that the Great Society programs enacted in the 1960s did more harm to African American families that the institution of slavery.
E.W. Jackson, who thinks LGBT Americans “poison culture” and says President Obama has “Muslim sensibilities,” told a crowd in Newport News that government programs like Medicare and Medicaid are to blame for current problems among black families.

I’m telling you that slavery did not destroy the black family even though it certainly was an attack on the black family. It made it difficult but I’ll tell you that the programs that began in the ‘60s, the programs that began to tell women that “you don’t need a man in the home, the government will take care of you,” that and began to tell men, “you don’t need to be in the home, the government will take care of this woman and take care of these children.” That’s when the black family began to deteriorate.

Human Action: You’re conflating two distinct things, again: 1) The South, by virtue of demographics, population density, or whatever, is a good choice for political action of whatever kind, and 2) the South is to blame for a political problem of whatever kind.

I conflate nothing. Shut down the South!

[Measure_for_Measure]

@Human_Action

A flag representing the military conquest of the Holy Land and slaughtering Muslims 824 years ago still has a sufficiently strong fan base to permit its continued retention in the same fashion as the Confederate flag: regional pride (and in that case, nationalism).

Not buying it. England is the equivalent of a province. I have no problem with current state flags of Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, North Carolina and even South Carolina. I disagree that there’s a lot of anti-Muslim sentiment within the English flag as popularly understood. Apropos nothing, I like the Welsh flag. I’m not sure there is a decent analogue to the Confederate flag.

I suppose I could get behind a flag devoted to biscuits and gravy.* I wonder whether there’s a decent cross-racial symbol of Southern culture. Might be worth looking into. Or maybe we could put Faulkner on the $200 bill or something.

• Biscuits and cornbread are awesome IMHO.

[Human_Action]

@Try2B_Comprehensive

Erm, my point is that a minority in the House is extorting the nation.

Here’s that Tea Party Caucus map again. You’re letting the voters of (certain districts of) California, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Wyoming, Nebraska, Kansas, Iowa, Minnesota, and Michigan off the hook, I must say, in addition to Ohio for seating John Boehner.

[QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive]
Here ya go.
Who is he talking about? This guy: Virginia GOP Nominee: ‘Great Society’ Programs Worse For Black Families Than Slavery
[/quote]

That’s your compelling evidence for:

@Try2B Comprehensive

It is widely believed that the resistance to health care reform has racist motives. If you’ve read up at all about the pro-segregationist movement, much of the sentiment revolved around ‘keeping them down’ and ‘once you let them up you’ll never put them down again’. Health care reform and Medicare expansion for the poorest will help a lot of minority citizens, and it is believed that is the motive for GOP opposition to all of it.

Here’s why it’s not:

1. Jackson says that these programs hurt African-American families, by removing the incentives for marriage and a two-parent household. By opposing them, he seeks to help them, not “keep them down”.

2. This is much more in keeping with (some factions of) conservative opposition to big government and entitlement spending (that doesn’t go to their base) than any sort of targeting of minorities.

3. Jackson himself is African-American.

4. He’s not entirely wrong. The slavery comparison is simply insane; nothing can be more harmful to a family than selling family members to different owners, or the widescale rape of captive women. But, beyond that hyperbole*, he does have a point:

Since 1970, out-of-wedlock birth rates have soared. In 1965, 24 percent of black infants and 3.1 percent of white infants were born to single mothers. By 1990 the rates had risen to 64 percent for black infants, 18 percent for whites. Every year about one million more children are born into fatherless families. If we have learned any policy lesson well over the past 25 years, it is that for children living in single-parent homes, the odds of living in poverty are great. The policy implications of the increase in out-of-wedlock births are staggering.

Indeed, by some metrics, the African-American family began to erode, starting in the few years after the Great Society programs were implemented. That could be correlation but not causation, and the good the programs did could outweigh the harm, but Jackson has some solid footing for his remarks.

• The slavery thing is either a) insanity, b) hyperbole, or c) some kind of convoluted argument that the Great Society was worse because it internalized the erosion of the family, meaning that African-American men in greater numbers were more inclined to impregnate women out of wedlock, fail to provide support for their children, and so forth, as opposed to an external force like slavery.

[QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive]
I conflate nothing. Shut down the South!
[/QUOTE]

In that case, can you make your point about the South being to blame, without also describing how you’d target the South politically? It really muddles things up.

[Human_Action]

@Measure_for_Measure

Not buying it. England is the equivalent of a province. I have no problem with current state flags of Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, North Carolina and even South Carolina. I disagree that there’s a lot of anti-Muslim sentiment within the English flag as popularly understood. Apropos nothing, I like the Welsh flag. I’m not sure there is a decent analogue to the Confederate flag.

So there’s a flag, which has its origins in a popular cause for its day, which is reprehensible to modern audiences. It’s not officially the flag of anything, and hasn’t been for a long time. Its primary use is regional identification/pride, such as at sporting events, and to serve the racist agenda of a few cranks.

Which flag am I talking about, the St. George Cross or the Confederate flag? There’s no perfect analogue to the Confederate flag, but the St. George Cross is a decent one.

[QUOTE=Measure for Measure]
I suppose I could get behind a flag devoted to biscuits and gravy.* I wonder whether there’s a decent cross-racial symbol of Southern culture. Might be worth looking into. Or maybe we could put Faulkner on the $200 bill or something.
[/quote]

Upthread, I proposed the BCS Championship football trophy. A football itself would also work, as would the SEC logo. Beyond that, I’ve no ideas.

[QUOTE=Measure for Measure]

• Biscuits and cornbread are awesome IMHO.
  [/QUOTE]

All Americans should be able to agree on that.

[Human_Action]

@Measure_for_Measure

Not buying it. England is the equivalent of a province. I have no problem with current state flags of Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, North Carolina and even South Carolina.

I’m hardly unbiased, but I think the flag of Kentucky is flippin’ gorgeous, and near-perfect.

[Peremensoe]

No. Just another seal centered on a dark blue field. Indistinguishable from a dozen others at distance or without a perfect breeze to unfurl it.

[Human_Action]

@Peremensoe

No. Just another seal centered on a dark blue field. Indistinguishable from a dozen others at distance or without a perfect breeze to unfurl it.

Dark blue is rather special to us.

The seal is both simple, and a powerful statement of union and fellowship. Can’t say that about the others; either too busy, too abstract, or contain Latin.

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

@Human_Action

In that case, can you make your point about the South being to blame, without also describing how you’d target the South politically? It really muddles things up.

I could point out Ex-GOP insider unloads: Blame “neo-Confederate insurrectionists” for shutdown!. He comes across as young and immature, but here ya go:

And although our American political system doesn’t offer much choice, with only two parties and gerrymandering, I think the people that elect these idiots bear a heavy burden of responsibility. They can’t say they’re against the government and then moan that they don’t get their check from the V.A.

He echoes my point that we ought to bring the shutdown to the people responsible.

Here’s that Tea Party Caucus map again. You’re letting the voters of (certain districts of) California, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Wyoming, Nebraska, Kansas, Iowa, Minnesota, and Michigan off the hook, I must say, in addition to Ohio for seating John Boehner.

Those parts are going to be your responsibility.

That’s your compelling evidence for:

Here’s why it’s not:

1. Jackson says that these programs hurt African-American families, by removing the incentives for marriage and a two-parent household. By opposing them, he seeks to help them, not “keep them down”.

2. This is much more in keeping with (some factions of) conservative opposition to big government and entitlement spending (that doesn’t go to their base) than any sort of targeting of minorities.

3. Jackson himself is African-American.

4. He’s not entirely wrong. The slavery comparison is simply insane; nothing can be more harmful to a family than selling family members to different owners, or the widescale rape of captive women. But, beyond that hyperbole*, he does have a point:

Well, I’d rather lose an argument than be the guy that got specific about the schematic of that argument. Others have done it though, and you could find better things to read IMHO.

Indeed, by some metrics, the African-American family began to erode, starting in the few years after the Great Society programs were implemented. That could be correlation but not causation, and the good the programs did could outweigh the harm, but Jackson has some solid footing for his remarks.

I’d be more impressed if he mentioned the deliberate imprisonment of minorities.

• The slavery thing is either a) insanity, b) hyperbole, or c) some kind of convoluted argument that the Great Society was worse because it internalized the erosion of the family, meaning that African-American men in greater numbers were more inclined to impregnate women out of wedlock, fail to provide support for their children, and so forth, as opposed to an external force like slavery.

I don’t think they got to choose their circumstances or consequences, but overall I’d say they chose ‘life’.

I don’t think E.W.'s remarks can really be defended. Slavery had to go. Benefits aren’t about race, they are only exaggeratedly portrayed that way.