Confused about the Mueller indictments

[Aspenglow]

@MandaJo

What do you think his “longer term objective” is? You seem to think that he’s very politically motivated. I tend to think, based on his reputation and party affiliation, he’s much more likely to be motivated by a desire to get to the actual truth, and to prevent it from being covered up. He probably also wants people who committed crimes to be identified and prosecuted. But I don’t think there is any reason to think that the electoral calendar is what it motivating him.

He’s a Republican. If this were about spinning the political impact, he’d be trying to find a way to allow the party to distance themselves and recover.

I think you’re right that Mueller wants to get to the actual truth and to prevent it from being covered up, as well as to identify and prosecute people who committed crimes. However, I disagree that the electoral calendar doesn’t motivate him.

Republicans in the current Congress have repeatedly shown they will not act in the best interests of the nation in this matter. Impeachment is a political process. For that reason, whether justice is done depends heavily on the electoral calendar.

Mueller is a Republican, but he’s a patriot first. He and the FBI are biased, for sure. Against criminals. If they have found extensive evidence of criminal behavior by Trump, his campaign and his administration, then the only true justice that can be had is if the Congress to which Mueller submits his findings is willing to take them seriously, not manipulate them for partisan purposes. It must be willing to pursue appropriate criminal remedies. Like the political process of impeachment.

[WordMan]

@MandaJo

What do you think his “longer term objective” is? You seem to think that he’s very politically motivated. I tend to think, based on his reputation and party affiliation, he’s much more likely to be motivated by a desire to get to the actual truth, and to prevent it from being covered up. He probably also wants people who committed crimes to be identified and prosecuted. But I don’t think there is any reason to think that the electoral calendar is what it motivating him.

He’s a Republican. If this were about spinning the political impact, he’d be trying to find a way to allow the party to distance themselves and recover.

To be clear, I see this, too. I heard a radio report - musta been NPR or a podcast - explaining how Mueller headed up the prosecution of Enron folk back then. Apparently it has really shaped how he lays out his objectives. The need to take a long, multi-month view, targeting specific things along the way. Junior-player guilty pleas, and frame that a true crime was in play for cover-up all seem like parts of a long build.

[scr4]

How is this “not actionable”? Doesn’t an indictment mean those Russians can never set foot in the US or its allies, lest they be arrested and extradited to the US?

[treis]

@WordMan

To be clear, I see this, too. I heard a radio report - musta been NPR or a podcast - explaining how Mueller headed up the prosecution of Enron folk back then. Apparently it has really shaped how he lays out his objectives. The need to take a long, multi-month view, targeting specific things along the way. Junior-player guilty pleas, and frame that a true crime was in play for cover-up all seem like parts of a long build.

Mueller is 9 months in and the FBI was investigating for nearly a year before that. This is a pretty poor result. Maybe it’s just a long build, but I’m disappointed.

[John_Mace]

@treis

Mueller is 9 months in and the FBI was investigating for nearly a year before that. This is a pretty poor result. Maybe it’s just a long build, but I’m disappointed.

The mantis waits patiently before striking, grasshopper.

[WordMan]

@treis

Mueller is 9 months in and the FBI was investigating for nearly a year before that. This is a pretty poor result. Maybe it’s just a long build, but I’m disappointed.

Here is an article on 538 FiveThirtyEight which explains how Mueller is moving at a faster pace vs. other investigations. I stand by my thinking - Mueller is getting his case in order over the long term.

Mueller Is Moving Quickly Compared To Past Special Counsel Investigations

[hajario]

He has now established a crime. The big prize is showing collusion with the Trump apparatus.

[Voyager]

@John_Mace

I never thought Trump was going to fire Mueller, so I don’t think it raises the stakes. That is not to say that I don’t think Trump wants to fire Mueller or thought/thinks about firing Mueller, but I don’t think he would go through with it. And at this point, as Mueller said in his SNL Weekend Update interview– it’s a little late for that.

I guess you missed the news stories about Trump deciding to fire Mueller and being talked out of it. And there still has been lots of discussion about him doing it. Trapped rats bite.
Also, Trump said again and again that Russian involvement never happened. This shows he was wrong. He has retreated into saying there was no collusion.

I don’t think it’s particularly noteworthy. We all knew something like that was going on, or those who think it’s all fake news will think this is fake news, too. I’m OK with letting Mueller proceed at his own pace and let the bombs fall where they will. I can imagine a whole range of such bombs, and I’m as certain as I can be that some folks are going down. Some very close to Trump. I won’t be surprised if Trump gets toppled, too, but I’m not planning on it or expecting it. Too many unknowns.

We all knew? Not Trump and the Trumpists. If by “we” you mean people with a clue, then I agree.

[Voyager]

@Do_Not_Taunt

Of course not. Talking about campaigns and candidates, even if expressing an opinion, isn’t campaigning. That foreign national can’t do anything you couldn’t do without counting it as a contribution-in-kind. If he mouths off at the bar or writes a scathing letter to the editor, paying for his own stamp, fine. If he puts up a ‘Hillary for President of America’ website, problematic. If he links to a few random, election-related articles on Facebook, fine. If he launches a coordinated effort to misinform Americans through a barrage of fake news and links on Facebook, problematic. Just because there’s no bright line doesn’t mean there’s no difference.

If there was one person doing this, it would be illegal but maybe no big deal. But there were a lot of people doing it, a conspiracy. And one almost certainly backed by the Russian government. That is a big deal.

[treis]

@WordMan

Here is an article on 538 FiveThirtyEight which explains how Mueller is moving at a faster pace vs. other investigations. I stand by my thinking - Mueller is getting his case in order over the long term.

Mueller Is Moving Quickly Compared To Past Special Counsel Investigations | FiveThirtyEight

I’m not super familiar with those outsisde of the Plane, Whitewater, and Iran contra ones. Comparing the timeline for Whitewater and Iran contra supports my argument. Yes, if Mueller roots around like Starr did I’m certain he will find something. However, it doesn’t appear to be like Iran Contra where there was blatant misconduct that was quickly uncovered.

[John_Mace]

@Voyager

I guess you missed the news stories about Trump deciding to fire Mueller and being talked out of it.

Sounds like he thought about it, wanted to do it, but didn’t do it. Which is exactly what I said. So no, I didn’t miss any of those stories.

[Aspenglow]

@John_Mace

Sounds like he thought about it, wanted to do it, but didn’t do it. Which is exactly what I said. So no, I didn’t miss any of those stories.

He didn’t just think about it. He ordered it. (The Hill) He had every expectation that the order would be carried out. It was only McGahn’s threat to resign that stopped him.

[Do_Not_Taunt]

@Voyager

If there was one person doing this, it would be illegal but maybe no big deal. But there were a lot of people doing it, a conspiracy. And one almost certainly backed by the Russian government. That is a big deal.

I agree with this. I’m actually kind of unclear on why you quoted me. Did you think you were disputing something I said?

[jasg]

@WordMan

Here is an article on 538 FiveThirtyEight which explains how Mueller is moving at a faster pace vs. other investigations. I stand by my thinking - Mueller is getting his case in order over the long term.

Mueller Is Moving Quickly Compared To Past Special Counsel Investigations | FiveThirtyEight

That link goes to a piece from last December. Here is a newer, updated one on the same subject.

The Russia Investigation Is Moving Really Freaking Fast

[Wesley_Clark]

@WordMan

Here is an article on 538 FiveThirtyEight which explains how Mueller is moving at a faster pace vs. other investigations. I stand by my thinking - Mueller is getting his case in order over the long term.

Mueller Is Moving Quickly Compared To Past Special Counsel Investigations | FiveThirtyEight

Yeah but there is blatant misconduct occurring in the Trump investigation, which is easier to investigate than a genuine political witch hunt like Whitewater. Plus Trump and his associates are pretty dumb people. Dumb criminals are easier to catch.

Plus the FBI was investigating Trump for a year before Mueller was appointed. Mueller got their information. He may have also gotten information from Schneiderman, who is conducting his own investigations in NY state. So Mueller started with at least a year’s worth of investigation falling into his lap.

Plus Mueller appointed the best legal team in the modern era. The quality of the people is high.

[scr4]

@hajario

He has now established a crime. The big prize is showing collusion with the Trump apparatus.

Or obstruction of justice. That’s a crime even if you didn’t do it to protect yourself.

[Xema]

As I understand it, the crimes in question are trying to influence an election while failing to register as a foreign agent and failing to report funding sources to the FEC. Is this a correct impression?

If so, would this also apply to Christopher Steele?

[simster]

@Xema

As I understand it, the crimes in question are trying to influence an election while failing to register as a foreign agent and failing to report funding
sources to the FEC. Is this a correct impression?

No - its much more than that - read the first page or so of the indictment.

@Xema

If so, would this also apply to Christopher Steele?

How many advertisements did he take out?

How much presence on social media (and other sources) are attributed to him?

Did he use stolen identities to pretend to be based in the US while he did either of the above?

Where, until after the election, did you hear the name “Christoper Steele” or anything about the Dossier?

Do you have any evidence to suggest that he was not properly ‘registered’ to do the work that he did?

[Voyager]

@Do_Not_Taunt

I agree with this. I’m actually kind of unclear on why you quoted me. Did you think you were disputing something I said?

I was agreeing with what you said, but extending it, since I think the conspiracy is the important part.

[Voyager]

@John_Mace

Sounds like he thought about it, wanted to do it, but didn’t do it. Which is exactly what I said. So no, I didn’t miss any of those stories.

He didn’t do it not because he thought it over and decided against it, but because he was threatened with a highly visible resignation if he did.
You seemed to be implying that he got rational for a change. Probably not what you intended.