Captain America is supposed to be the ideal American. He’s fair, honest, believes in freedom and democracy and knows how to throw a punch (or a shield)…if you don’t like that–get over yourself.
Don’t confuse people’s attitudes or opinions toward CAPTAIN AMERICA with (you know) actual America.
Lots of people who will find Captain America utterly ridiculous and pathetic will also count the United States among their most well-liked places and peoples of the world – but you must have noticed by now that there is a very strong correlation between being draped in the US flag* and being a vapid moron.
*statement easily amended to include any flag.
I don’t think this can excuse it. Captain America is basically the noblest, most deent superhero this side of Superman, or even moreso. He’s the epitome of American self image: all of out good side, none of anyone’s bad side. This is why he’s called Captain America. If you just assume, oh, this is going to be some self-congratulatory crapofest, then the problem is with the person saying that.
(Although, the director basically seems to have gone way too far out of his way to assure everyone it isn’t so, and either he’s a self-infulgent lefty or an idiot, and like most in Hollywood, probably both.)
Cap is Cap. Steve Rogers is basically the ultimate hero for Americans: brave, righteous, generous, noble, usually a good judge of character - but not blindly trustful or judgemental. He doesn’t have any enemies except people who’ve deliberately pit themselves on the side of evil. If you are so obsessed with the fact that he’s Captain America, then it’s solely because you really are judgemental or just plain dislike America or are ashamed, and you’re shoving your politics into something which isn’t about that.
Granted, that’s usual leftiness these days: everything is about politics, and the rest of us can either respond or ignore it (I do both, by turns). I am damn sick of people complaining about movies for political reasons. If it ain’t political on its own, don’t make it so. When everything has to be viewed through the twisted lens of Bush-hatred, everything will be judtged only on that basis - just as the Nazi cultural directors and the Soviet Commissars did, and for the same reasons. But you won’t be looking at the work.
And let’s be honest: Would of any these people complain about Captain Britain? Or Canuck?
Exactly.
Now, some people are making the point that Captain America represents the more noble values of the U.S., not the “America, fuck yeah!” variety. That may well be the case, but the character isn’t as iconic as Spider-man outside the U.S. and more on the scale of Iron Man, if that. Outside of the U.S., nobody knows what the character stands for–they can only guess.
If the movie is trying to shy away from any jingoism, you need to get people to see it first to find that out, because most people have no idea about what’s in the comics. So all they’ll see is a guy called “Captain America” draped in the Red, White and Blue while fighting bad guys in WWII. The surface appearance, even if it’s not representative of the actual character, will turn people off immediately.
smiling bandit, you seem to be saying that the only demographic that won’t respond well to Captain America is the political left.
You do realise that Europe is generally left of the U.S., right? What does that suggest?
Your post really only strengthened the point some of us are making.
As far as I know, Captain America is just plain less known that many other US superheros like the Hulk, Superman, Spider-Man etc. Not that that is necessarily bad for sales, but I do remember that the first time I saw the earlier Captain America movie I thought it was a spoof superhero movie with all main characters made up for the movie. I mean, a superhero dressed like that?! The fact that the movie was ridiculous didn’t help either.
I’m outside the US, and I’ve been reading Captain America comics since the late 60s. I know exactly what Steve Rogers stands for.
We have those – we call them “movie reviewers”.
As far as I can tell, from this thread and others, it’s mostly Americans who think this. Seriously, fellas: its an American movie about an American character. We have seen one or two of those before, you know – we’re sort of used to the idea by now. Or did you think they CGI’d British uniforms onto the cast of Saving Private Ryan when they showed it over here?
How many people like you are there out there in the so-called foreign markets? Not enough to automatically make the film successful in those territories, I’m guessing.
Most people ignore critics, but in any case, do you really see a Captain America movie being the darling of European critics? Are the French critics–you know, the ones who came up with auteur theory–going to be doing cartwheels over a movie by Joe Johnston that features images like this?
Admittedly, I’m generalising, but even the more blockbuster-friendly critics tend to turn their noses up at U.S. ultra-patriotism. If someone is undecided about going to see the film, a critic won’t be the one to convince them to do so.
You know what? That actually looks cool.
But he’s so pretty.
I agree. 
While I appreciate that there might be some misjudging about what Captain America really is or means, that isn’t the point. It isn’t as though non-US moviegoers MUST make an informed decision about the movie. If they are turned off by perceived jingoism, that’s just as bad for the bottom line as if they are turned off by actual jingoism.
I think it’s kinda funny that people are obsessing over the fact that Cap wears stars and stripes, because, gosh, that’s just too gung-ho American.
Meanwhile The Dark Knight was basically a movie-length apologia for the War on Terror, and people ate that right up.
Straining at gnats and swallowing camels.
There are three obvious factors which will impact its performance.
[ol]
[li]The difference in cultural tastes regardless of genre.[/li][li]The uninformed knee-jerk impression of the character[/li][li]The quality of the movie.[/li][/ol]
There’s nothing that can be done about #1.
As this thread suggests, #2 will prove to be a huge hurdle to clear. Cap is a character that — like Wonder Woman — exists in the minds of people more as a symbol, rather than a familiarity with the character, his characterization and motivations. As a result you’ll get overweight Tea Party activists donning an ill-fitting Captain America costume in an effort to usurp his symbolism as their own.
As the OP suggests, when you wrap a protagonist in a flag and call him “Captain America,” it’s going to hard to disassociate that character with whatever feelings a moviegoer has with the U.S. at this point in history. It appears several posters have gotten a “jingoistic” vibe off the character by sight alone not knowing that since his post-WWII reintroduction in 1964, his characterization has been anything but (Ultimate incarnation notwithstanding).
My hope is that this “perception pitfall” is so obvious to the creators, that they make a point of casting him not as a manifestation of what America is, but what America aspires to be. I think this approach gains additional traction when one considers that this character is a member of the Brokaw-coined “Greatest Generation,” and upon his revival in modern times (which I expect to be portrayed in the forthcoming Avengers movie), one of the core components of the character is that he is a man somewhat out-of-time and out-of-step with modern society.
To the charge that the character “is the only Marvel hero that somehow manages to be more ridiculous than Thor.” I can only say that the character — as portrayed in the comics over the past five decades — exemplifies a strong moral compass, relentless, never-say-die determination and the combat proficiency to back it up. If that’s ridiculous, then I’m a first-class lunatic for venerting it.
To sum up, I agree that the name and costume pose considerable hurdles to it’s success overseas. But I think those hurdles are obvious and can be met with careful consideration, and that’s where factor #3 comes into play.
About as many as knew who Iron Man was before that hugely successful movie he was in. Maybe a few more.
Well, it’s your assumption that the movie will be ultra-patriotic – so far the only evidence we have on that is the director saying that it isn’t.
You also seem to be missing my point, I think. The objections you have to the Captain America film could just as easily be made to any number of big, dumb, fun action films that have been just as popular outside the US as within it. Anti-Americanism just isn’t the huge overriding factor that you seem to think it is. We watch American movies all the time. We know you sometimes think rather too well of yourselves, but you make big, loud movies with people shooting each other and blowing shit up and looking cool. We enjoy them just as much as you do, but from our perspective they’re all very, very American. Batman’s American. Spider-Man’s American. Superman’s very American. The fact that this particular hero’s costume is based on the Stars and Stripes is like a drop in the ocean of Americanness we see in all these films.
Captain America will succeed or fail on its merits as a movie, in the US and elsewhere. It’s an American movie about an American hero – just like all the others.
And Superfluous Parentheses is right: that looks cool.
It probably won’t be, but critics in general tend to be cultural elitists who react badly to the “cultural imperialism” that they perceive things like Captain America to personify. It doesn’t matter if the character embodies universal ideals, because his name and his costume relate those values back to being American.
In other words, foreign film critics will perceive the film as a way of selling the American myth to impressionable children. Is this fair? Maybe not. But it’s reality, IMHO.
Mate, I’m not American, despite the fact that you keep talking to me as if I am. I’m Australian.
You’re a fan of Captain America, so maybe you can’t see it, but Batman, Spider-man, X-men, Wonder Woman, the Hulk, etc. are different to Captain America in a crucial way: they’re not overtly American.
American superheroes are obviously going to reflect the values of the culture they grew out of. We’re all so steeped in American culture that the differences usually don’t even register with us. But when it draws attention to itself with talk of “American values”, it turns people off.
I’m a fan of Superman, who I admit is also “very American”. But note that the films toned-down the flag-waving from the old George Reeves series, so, again, there was nothing overt. It’s classic Americana, which is different again.
Where did that come from?!
What do you mean?
Who has been drawing attention to themselves with talk of “American values”?
What I’m saying is that if it’s a film about truth, justice and the American way, nobody minds, but when characters in a film start talking explicitly about American values, people start to tune-out.
Even big fans of Independence Day, for example, will include remarks like “I know it’s really American, but…” Nobody feels the need to say that about, say, Terminator 2. Both are American action films, but one is self-consciously American.
I’m not talking about posters but rather the films themselves.
The way I read your posts, you made it sound like this movie is expressly selling itself in this way. It sounded like you were projecting onto it even though the only marketing we have from the movie is a handful of set photos.
I guess what I’m getting at is that you can tweak Superman, say, to have greater international appeal. There’s nothing explicitly American about Superman. But no matter how you tweak Captain America, he’s still a guy called Captain America who’s draped in the flag. It kind of limits how universal he can be.
The symbolism of the character is essentially making the statement “This is what America stands for”, i.e. the noble fight for justice and equality. Most adults outside the U.S. don’t buy into that idea, what with the U.S.'s foreign policy history. The gulf between what America supposedly stands for and what is done in practice shows a stunning lack of self-awareness in some people’s eyes. This is why, even if the character were to be someone foreigners could, in principle, support, he is meant to symbolise America itself, and it’s the disconnect between the lauded ideal and the reality that causes people’s heads to explode.