Conservative Checking In...

The BBQ Pit
21

Paleo-conservative, unaligned with any political party, here. Believe in small, preferably local, government. Minimal foreign entanglement at government/social welfare levels, let the people and the market drive those arenas. Pro-life, mildly pro-gun, generally pro free-market(not pro-oligopoly). I support border/immigration/homeland security controls on general principle, but have a lot of problems with the way the situation with Mexico has been handled, mostly with the US not holding the elites in Mexico responsible for improving the conditions for the masses, or at least not encouraging mass emigration. Not adverse to getting the tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to be free from other countries, but the hard-nosed economist in me knows the nation can only support certain levels of dirt-poor immigrants.

Basically I’m on the mildly liberal side of Texas, which makes me “conservative” to most of the world, probably including the OP, and even to most of the US. I think the US’s top priority should be the US and not remaking the socio-political structure of a region half a world away, which by the way doesn’t want us to re-make it. Even the average MENA resident doesn’t like their situation they’re much less happy about having a third party, with a vastly different socio-economic culture, impose something on them by force.

Never supported the Iraq war. Going on record as agreeing with Cecil that it’s a “damn fool war.” On record as saying the right solution to the “threat of WMD” was inspections. On record as saying the right solution to Saddam’s regime was to wait until the fucker died like we’re doing with Castro. If his sons had started shit we could wipe the floor with them just like we did with their old man. I would have supported UN-based humanitarian aid to any oppressed minorities in Iraq. Not a huge believer in the UN, and the corruption of the Oil For Food program didn’t particularly shock me, but it’s the lesser of two evils(the other being to have Saddam starve the oppressed populations in Iraq) IMHO. I wasn’t bothered by the no-fly zone because it was producing results and I saw it as a minor evil. Supported the war in Afghanistan, think it should have been finished and Bin Laden found.

Not at all happy about the railroading of re-districting, threats of the “nuclear option”, and other “fuck you, we’re getting our way” tactics of the current Republican party. Not happy about the Republican controlled Congress continuing to abandon their authority to the executive branch and being Bush’s bitch. Wasn’t alive during the times when Democrats dominated and played dirty pool, but I still don’t see that as making the dirty pool of today somehow ok. Not happy about wiretapping and increased domestic survelience programs, but unaware of any great miscarriages of justice to be outraged about.

Pissed, extremely pissed, at the fiscal irresponsibility of the current administration. Pissed at the dominance of ideology in policymaking. Pissed over the environmental irresponsibility of the current administration. Pissed at the bullshit with Abramoff and other lobbyists getting such ridiculous levels of access/cooperation. Pissed at how the President and many top admin people surround themselves with yes-men and try to control all sources of information about policy and the state of the union at any given time. Jeff Ganon/Guckert was a symptom of this bullshit. Pissed that so many lives and livelyhoods are being thrown away in Iraq with no realistic plans or objectives(i.e. the Powell Doctrine) in place. Pissed at the admin for using their “fuck you, we’ll do what we want” attitude in Gitmo and the international community in general.

Sad at man’s inhumanity to man as evidenced by Gitmo, Abu Garaib, Haditha, and that’s just what the US(and therefore me as a voter) had influence on. Sad over Darfur, 9/11, Madrid, Bali, London, Israel/Palestine, and the whole Checenya situation.

No, this isn’t a good time to be a paleo-conservative in the US. Pretty much none of my views are being made policy. So I’m keeping my head down, taking care of the family, and doing what I can locally. Not much more I can think of to do really.

Enjoy,
Steven

22

I’m not a conservative, but I opposed the Iraq war for entirely different reasons than most folks. I didn’t think it was wrong or immoral, I just thought that Bush was (mis)leading the US populace into a war that for various reasons, the US could not possibly win, and in which the majority of people who supported the war would not be affected one way or the other. The only people paying the price are the soldiers who fight for a cause that, due to the cowardice and stupidity of the average American, is now lost, and the Iraqis.

In 2003, At the airport in CFB Trenton, I crossed paths with some US soldiers who were en-route to their staging areas in Kuwait. At that point it was still somewhat in doubt in the public as to whether the invasion was going to happen or not, but these fine fellows quietly indicated to me as a fellow soldier (on his way to a relatively more pleasant locale) that it most likely will. The overall sentiment was quite optimistic. On the one hand, they were quite confident, as everyone was, that the war of manuever will be over quite quickly and without great loss, and that the removal of Saddam was ultimately a just cause. On the other hand, most of them who have done this sort of thing before were under no illusions as to how long the pacification of the country would take. No one expected it to take less than 10 years and thousands of casualties, IF everything worked out. Would the US populace still be behind them THEN? That was much more uncertain.

Everything did not work out. Given what I had already known of Bush at the time, this hardly suprised me. I hope those guys all got back OK.

Americans, as a whole, do not care about the rest of the world. What does it matter to them whether Saddam stays on for another 20 years and gasses a hundred thousand more brown people? That they were so stupid as to be cajoled into supporting a war on false premises is sickening enough, but what truly disgusts me is the screams of “there were no WMDs” I hear today. Is the life and future of Iraq and Iraqis worth so little in the eyes of the American, that the only thing that matters to him at this stage, after all the death and destruction, is how many WW1 era gas shells Saddam had buried in the desert, and which MAY, at some point and in the hands of terrorists, have constituted some unimaginably miniscule threat to the US?

If the average American truly believed Iraq to be a worthwhile moral cause, they would have thrown out the incompetent Bush co. years ago and replaced him with competent and courageous leaders. These would give a realistic assessment of how many soldiers would be needed (and introduced the draft to make good this number) and how much resources(to be levied in some simple and equitable manner, a 25% tax on gasoline would be a good start), and then fight the damn war like they meant business. If Americans had any genuine belief in the principles that their founding fathers espoused, they wouldn’t be talking about pulling out, they’d be doing everything possible to WIN.

Of course, that hasn’t happened for the same reason the war started in the first place - because they are gullible and gutless cowards who care only about their own security and god given right to consume more energy and resources in a day than a third world family consumes in 6 month, and who are perfectly willing to unleash whatever death and destruction is neccesary to secure it, as long no new taxes are raised, and who are now perfectly willing to abandon the Iraqis to their fate because “there were no WMDs”, so it’s not our problem anymore.

23

UK conservative checking in. By UK standards, I’m on the lunatic fringe of conservatism. I believe market forces work better than any other known system, good government is small government, and people should take full responsibility for themselves. Legalize drugs and prostitutions, and let the market set the rate.

I have never supported the war in Iraq as it was a blatant lie. Anyone could see there was no evidence, or it would have been paraded at every opportunity. I would have supported it more if the US and UK had just presented it as the neo-imperialist landgrab it clearly was, and gone about it in those terms: invade, smash the government, put in occupying forces, take the oil, mention in passing we’ll happily do it again if any other country pisses us off. At least then we’d appear to be straight up, competent, vicious thieving fuckers rather than dishonest, incompetent, vicious thieving fuckers. If you’re going to be the bad guy, at least do it well for fucks sake.

24

For what little it’s worth, I find this to be an exceptionally laudatory position, and would hope that you would be more praised for having integrity from the get go than we perhaps do for those who supported Bush but have come to see the light.

I know in our society we tend to prefer to high five the recovering alcoholic more so than the never-was-an-alcoholic, but you have my great respect.

25

Speaking of non-American conservative koolaid-drinking asswipes hawks, what’s Howard doing these days? And Blair? Everyone seems to want to blame Bush for this fiasco (I know I do), but he wasn’t alone in fuckin gthe world.

26

Last I heard, Howard was still doggedly polishing Bush’s badges for him, while Blair seems to be flicking at the curtains looking for the stage exit. You’re right, tdn – there’s three to this shambles, not just one.

27

So what are Brit and Aussie voters doing about Larry and Curly?

28

I believe Howard (don’t know enough to speak for Blair) has screwed up, but lesser than Bush. He has already stated that we’re not going to be in this long-term.

I supported all three men at the beginning. Howard seems to be waking up. Maybe slowly, but he is. Bush isn’t. Hence, I’m pitting Bush. Happy?

29

I’m voting Labor next time probably, but for completely different reasons. Howard’s road to Damascus in this matter has taken roughly the same timeframe as my own, so it’s difficult to pit him over it.

And Ice Wolf, how surprising to see you right on the tailgate of the first definite disagreeing post in this thread. Right on cue you are. If the spirit of this OP isn’t enough to make you down tools, I honestly don’t know what is.

The rest of you, thanks for the support and information.

30

Blair keeps hinting that he’s going to step down as leader of his party. Probably so. As for Howard (this just being an outsider’s view) – he keeps being voted back in, partly because of economic promises, and partly because the opposition can’t get their act together. Next election’s this year I think. Who knows what’ll happen.

31

I’m just agreeing with tdn that there are three involved, not one – but that isn’t saying your OP is either incorrect or limited in any kind of scope, TLD. Your above comment to me isn’t surprising, though. After all the words and toss-around brought on by discussion about Bush and Iraq and all that, no – not surprising at all.

But – I do commend you on the OP. I thought that on reading it. I’ve already “downed tools” twice, as you know. If you mean I should say “Good on you for saying what you did in the OP” – you have that.

32

Doesn’t that mean you’re a Liberal?

33

WEll, you did come in twelve minutes after **tdn[/n] in a fourteen hour-long thread, but that’s ok. Uh… thanks… I think.

I was extremely happy that my fellow Dopers had held off on the “I told you so neener neener” front. I trust that is still the case.

34

Actually I’m impressed with the cleverness of PM Howard who has been able to definitely convey that Australia is in the war for no reason other than the US alliance, without having ever stated that explicitly. Similarly the opposition in Australia has tacitly agreed to that policy and keeping silent on the general knowledge that Australian Intelligence also knew the WMD case was an invention.

Still PM Howard has been in power for a while and it is probably time for him to go.

35

Didn’t see it before I went to bed last night, just woke up about an hour or so ago. Apologies – even a Wolf needs to work, eat then sleep. :stuck_out_tongue: :slight_smile:

Can’t speak for anyone else, but the fuckin’ last thing I’d do in a thread where you’re stating what you’ve stated is a “Hey, I told you so.” That’d be a shitty thing to do. You’re an honest man in this, TLD. Again, good on you.

You want t’ take that guardedly, that’s your business. Makes no matter t’ me.

36

No, not really. Even if Howard and Blair are contrite and throw themselves to the wolves – Hell, even Bush does – we’re still fucked. No, I’m not happy.

37

What if they acted to the best of their honesty and belief in the first place?

This is a tricky area and I know I could be accused of giving a half-arsed apologetic OP if I pursue it far, but…
I honestly think the WMD component was a gamble on both sides. There was reason to think they could* be there. The conservatives outright declared they were there and the liberals outright declared they weren’t. Frankly, I think both sides were utterly thoughtless beyond their own dogmas, and the liberals got lucky. But that’s for another debate, because I’m pitting what is taking place AFTER the facts started to become clear, not the guesses all sides had to take before they did. In other words, I’m NOT pitting Bush for sending troops in 2003, but I am pitting him for sending them in 2007.

38

I know you would like that to be another debate, but until then, let me just say - BULLSHIT! Opponents of the invasion pretty much exclusively said that there probably were some weapons of mass destruction, but not enough, particularly as things stood, to regard Iraq as an immediate threat to the US, and probably not even to his neighbors.

Many liberals gave credence to Colin Powell’s presentation to the UN.

As we directed inspectors to a number of sites and nothing was turned up, it became more evident that there was nothing. But take a look back on the SDMB, and you’ll see that one of the big threads discussing the issue was entitled “I’ll go out on a limb and say that there are NO WMD,” or something to that effect.

Liberals did not blindly believe anything. Just because you and many conservatives did, does not make liberals the mirror opposite.

39

No, that’s simply not true. It is well established that a number of intelligence agencies, certainly including the Australian and probably now the American too, knew, that is knew that the WMD component was an invention and contrary to current intelligence. I believe an Australian intelligence officer resigned and went public over this. I cannot remember the name at the moment.

40

Probably, yes, and a bunch of us liberals who wholly supported the war in Afghanistan and were only a bit squeamish about Iraq ONLY because Afghanistan wasn’t finished yet. And that would include most of the Democrats now enjoying a majority in the U.S. House and Senate.

You seem like the kind of conservative I’d like to drink beer with. We agree on where the country needs to go, but differ on the best route there. It’s the differing that makes America fun.