Now you know the answer to “where are all the conservatives?”
Of course, I am still of the opinion that WMDs can be hellishly hard to find in a hostile country, and that they may be (likely are) still there. Maybe only a few of them though. Maybe no threat to the US? That makes it ok. Just ask the Kurds.
But yes, I’d like this to be another debate. This isn’t a weakness. This is because I’m curious as to SDMB demographics regarding fellow conservatives who feel as I do and who might like to speak up without being shot down thoughtlessly.
For your information, both liberals and conservatives often blindly believe many things. That is a function of being human, not of politics.
Correct, or close enough. Myself, I was in “wait and see” mode. In fact, at the beginning, I think most Dems were reluctantly (or in some cases, enthusiastically) accepting of Bush’s fabrication. Had they not been, Bush wouldn’t have gotten the support that he did.
Yes, I further recollect another 2 Australian Intelligence officers sometime later, having resigned their posts in Iraq when they realized the supposed CIA lead ‘intelligence gathering’ they had been assigned to there was nothing but a search for data to favour the policy of invasion.
What did you expect? An “Official SDMB Good Guy” Badge? A Get Out of Scrutiny Free Pass?
“Oh, you dislike Bush? Well, then, assert anything you like, because all we care about is whether you hate Bush?”
I think you’ve been absorbing too much spin about how liberals/Democrats/the left think about such issues.
I suspect you’re correct about where all the conservatives went. Their thinking tends to be as simplistic as “If I renounce Bush, liberals will agree with everything I say.” They also see to run from basic factual debate as well, such as an assertion that liberals automatically said there were no WMD prior to the invasion.
I meant to have a qualifier in there that made clear that I’m not saying all conservatives think in such simplistically stark terms. I don’t believe that.
Here’s one far-lefty who agrees heartedly with this sentiment. I’m a realist enough to know that my country isn’t going to model every foreign policy move after my personal preferences. But if they’re gonna swing their big dick, at least get something out of it.
Didn’t expect anything of the sort (or I’d have posted this in MSPIMS).
Okay, I miiiiight have expected five nanoseconds without some smug comment. Believe me, just because I’m renouncing Bush doesn’t mean I’m kissing your arse.
You seem to be leaving out the fact that in the intervening time between your OP and the matter you’re all in a tizzy about, you said something really stupid. How much time should I wait to respond after you say something really stupid?
Please be sure that before you wander away from this thread and whine about the mistreatment of conservatives, you clearly understand that you received comments unwanted by you only after making a baldfacedly false claim about liberals, one that was not only incorrect, but which also sought to assert a false equivalence between liberals and conservatives.
When you still say you support a war(not how it was carried out but the war in principle) that a lot of people view as illegal and has cost the lives of very possibly 100’s of thousands, was based on lies and scaremongering(especially in the UK) and has left the world in a more dangerous position that it was before, then you should expect a bit of shit.
I personally can’t understand why anyone supported the war. It always looked like a power play to me, nothing more nothing less. I’ve a lot of time for you TheLoadedDog and would love to share a beer or 10. I know we’d get on and have a good bit of craic. Believe me though, if we got into serious stuff I’d argue hard about this war. It’s to serious not to IMO.
It’s not about “I told you so” from my POV, it’s about learning a lesson that people in power should not be trusted by default and war should be treated as a last resort.
Sadly, I misread TLD’s posts. I welcomed his use of the past tense.
But … seeing as although you no longer support Bush, but you support the idea the war took place anyway … ach. You make me shake my head, TLD. You’re coming along, just fine, but you’re still not quite at the point of it all.
I won’t take back my supportive words with regard to your OP. You’re making good steps in the right direction. But – just let that belief in Bush, and in what his adminstration did, go. Or at least – try to. The war was a shit-filled exercise in political and economic gain, under the guise of the “War on Terror”. Right from the start. Hence why it is such a clusterfuck.
The worst thing about it all is what he and his neo-con bretheren did to beautiful concepts like liberty, freedom, and democracy. They have actually succeeded in making these terms almost unpalatable and subject to ridicule. For that alone, they deserve… well, lucky for them that God doesn’t leave it up to me.
Blair is off in the next 5-6 months (definitely no longer), having effectively promised to hand over to Gordon Brown (our Treasury guy) before the next general election. The election (not for at least another couple of years) is anyone’s guess, and will obviously depend heavily on how Brown does. My money is on the Tories, if they can carry on the progress they’ve made of late. I don’t think Brown is charismatic enough to translate anything less than real success into poll results, and I think he’s too autocratic and micro-managing to actually achieve that.
As for Brown’s style between the handover and election, I think he’s less of a risk-taker than Blair, and keener on being seen in a benevolent light, internationally speaking. I’d be surprised to see any support for further military adventures from him. Given the deterioration even in the British-controlled areas of Iraq and his almost complete personal detachment from the whole shebang, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him try and get out of there sooner rather than later. As I say, he’s not widely personally associated with the decision to go to war, so withdrawal (even if deleterious to Iraq’s security) provides him with a cheap popularity boost as and when he decides to cash in.
I have no idea whatsoever as to what our Conservatives might do Iraq-wise, should they reach power at the next election. And I think they like it that way.
So I guess the answer to your question is “nothing, because they can’t until 2009ish”. Labour got a bit of a kicking in the latest local elections, but our wheelie bin collection scheme managers aren’t exactly big on geopolitics.
If Howard goes it’ll be over domestic issues - unless a bunch of insurgents manage to find the sixhundred-odd Aussie soldiers carefully tucked away in the Shia south. Our presence in Iraq is miniscule and completely token.