conservative Christians are going to Hell (with the rest of us)

I wrote this article a long time back and, well, I haven’t been part of a rip-roaring religious debate in a while, so I thought I’d post this and stir the embers a bit.
Think you’ll make it to the Pearly Gates? Better read up on the Bible, sinner.
For example : in Deuteronomy 13:6-10, it states :
*'If your brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife tries to secretly entice you, telling you to go and worship other gods, gods of people living near you, or far from you, or anywhere on earth, do not listen to him. You must kill them. Show them no pity. And your hand must strike the first blow.Then the hands of all the people. You shall stone them to death. " *
So unless you think the Bible is just a big load of horse-crap, you really should be stoning your family members to death if they do anything that might lead you to other gods.
But that’s just that wacky Old Testament, you say. Nobody pays any attention to that any more!
OK then, you’re off the hook for your holy reluctance to kill your horrible, unclean family members with thrown stones. But the New Testament says, in 1 Corinthians 11:4-5,
" For any man to pray or to prophesy with his head covered shows disrespect for his head. And for a woman to pray or prophecy with her head uncovered shows disrespect for her head." *
So men, if you’ve ever worn a hat in Church (or any other time you are praying), you’re a sinner. And ladies, if you’ve ever NOT worn a hat in Church (or any other time you are praying), you too are a sinner, even if you thought showing off your great new hairdo in Church was to the greater glory of God.
Indeed, in 1 Corinthians 11:6 it clearly says " Indeed, if a woman does go without a veil, she should have her hair cut off too.". The lineup for shaving forms on the left, you brazen hussies!
Of course, not wearing a hat in Church is not the worst thing a woman can do… not compared to the infamous and flagrant sin of talking.
For is it not written in 1 Corinthians 14:34,
"
As in all the churches of God’s holy people, women are to remain quiet in the assemblies, since they have no permission to speak: theirs is a subordinate part. If there is anything they want to know, they should ask their husbands at home: it is shameful for a woman to speak in the assembly. During instruction, a woman should be quiet and respectful. I give no permission for a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. A woman ought to be quiet." *
So hush up those chatterbox mouths of yours, ladies. Yours is the subordinate role, it says it right there in the Bible. And seeing as you can’t ever have authority over men, any of you who have men working for you, or God forbid, seek public office, are Jezebels of the foulest degree.
But that’s just the Epistles, right? Those aren’t the literal words of Jesus.
Right you are! So let’s see what Jesus has to say about things.
Well, for starters, there’s Matthew 5:41-42
“*Give to the one who asks you, and do not reject the one who wants to borrow from you. If you lend to those from whom you hope to be repaid, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners. *”
And in Luke 6:30-31"
*"Give to everyone who asks you. And do not ask for your possessions back from the person who takes them away… " *
So if you’ve ever lent something to someone with the hope of being repaid, you’re a sinner, a demon, and a wretch. I mean, Jesus must have been quite adamant about this, two Apostles say this is His opinion. So you must give to anyone who asks you and never expect repayment, or it’s Hell for you. Obviously, there are a lot of bankers and owners of finance companies who are sin-soaked horrors, worse than any homosexual, and who are going to find Hell especially toasty.
Or how about Mark 11:10, wherein it is written : *"Whoever divorces someone and marries another commits adultery. Whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. "
Now I seem to recall that there’s quite a number of prominent Republicans and others of the Religious Right who have been divorced and remarried at least once. How dare you Christians let yourself be lead by such obvious abominations of sin? You might as well just join Michael Moore in hating America.
And of course, for all you rich Republicans, there’s Matthew 6:19, Luke 12:15 :
“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth. A man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.” *
And further in Matthew 6:24,
" No one can serve two masters. He will hate the one and love the other. You cannot serve both God and money.’" *
And moreso in Mark 6:21-22,
“Sell everything you have. And give to the poor.”. *
Clearly, if you have many possessions and much wealth, you must sell them all and give it to the poor, lest you roast in the fires of Hell. Christ Himself, the one who is so central to your religion that you named it after Him, says to do so, and unless you think the Bible is anythign less than the literal Word of God, you have to do it.
Even if you plead ignorance of the Word of God until this moment, you have now received Testament and from this point on, you must sell all your possessions, kill those who try to entice you away from the Lord, forsake all love of money (unless you hate God), ban all forms of divorce, and follow many, many other rules, too numerous to list here. But unless you wipe your ass with the Bible and the Word of God, you have a lot of reading to do.
On the other hand, you could just admit that you pick and choose the parts of the Bible that you like, and ignore what you don’t like, and thus it is a meaningless book to reference in any argument.
But hey… you’re going to Hell anyway.

I suspect that religious folks will simply find a way to rationalize all this away. I, on the other hand, thank you for the ammo.

Why would that be? As a never divorced, poor person who still has no problem lending, when I have it to lend, and who has never prayed with a hat on and whose family has never tried to entice me to worship idols, nothing in the OP indicates that I am sinning. Beyond that, nothing in the OP indicates that anyone who commits those particular sins, (if sins they were), are going to hell. Both the Old and New Testaments indicate that everyone is presumed to sin, not that every sinner is damned. There is one strain of extreme literalist Christian who also believes that everyone is damned for the smallest sin, but they are also the ones who tend to believe that simply expressing a belief in Jesus gets all the other sins washed away, completely, (and can quote scripture to prove it to their satisfaction).

I’ll let this sit here so that the mouth-foamers on both sides can exercise their keyboards, but there is no serious debate in the OP.

I am agnostic at best and do not believe in the Christ, but your arguments have no merit because the bible also says:

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son" (John 3: 16-18).

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do " (Eph. 2:8,9).

" the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes . . . " (Romans 1:16).

" If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved " (Romans 10:9, 10).

The passages you quote give instructions for a holy life here on earth, not directions on getting into heaven.

The bible makes it clear that it is through faith, not through acts that you get into heaven. All the other quote picking is irrelevant to the Christian faith.

Essentially, most of Paul’s epistles can be summed up as, “Guides to Living a More Sacred Christian Life Here on Earth”. I usually find that people with the biggest axes to grind pick 1 Corinthians, because it does list a lot of “rules” particularly in regards to modesty and sexual activity. This is due to the fact that the Corinthian church was in a city that was known for it’s promiscuity and homosexual activities at the time, including state-sanctioned prostitution (sounds like a mix between San Francisco and Las Vegas - not that there’s anything wrong with that; I personally like a little debauchery once-in-a-while). The Corinthian church was wrestling with what to do about promiscuity within their own congregation, so Paul essentially told them what it would take to remove the “temptation” of such activities. What gets overlooked a lot is 2 Corinthians - where Paul basically spends most of the book explaining that the stuff he wrote in 1 Corinthians is meant to be a guide, and not to be taken as a set of legal rules that had to be obeyed or you would burn in hell, since the Corinthian church had done just that.

Wow, this OP is even more pitiful than the title suggests.

Michael, you seem to think that I’ll be extremely surprised to learn that I’m a sinner. Actually, the entire point of Christianity is that everybody on earth is a sinner. Hence your OP is kind of like saying, “Hey, you stupid Christians. The sky is blue. Bet you never knew that. Aren’t you impressed by how smart I am?”

Honestly, can’t you try a little bit harder? Is this really the best you can do?

Why aren’t Christians trying as hard to outlaw divorce as they are trying to outlaw gay marriage?

Do you have any evidence that all Christians are against Gay Marriage?

Back to the OP- yes, we are all Sinners, but all can be forgiven. And, many of those Epistles do not state that the transgressor is a sinner, just that those actions aren’t something that is proper to do under those circumstances. Like the difference between a code of laws and rules of manners.

This is a very lame OP.

I don’t see how that is relevant to the OP or the debate at hand. It may be a valid debate, but doesn’t seem relevant to this one.

In part, it’s because divorce is allowed by the Bible in certain circumstances – when one party has been guilty of adultery, for example.

The OP would be much, much easier to read if there were only spaces between the paragraphs.

This will come off as snark, but really.

If the sort of “conservative christians” the OP describes are going to heaven, I’m sure many of us would RATHER choose total oblivion or “that other place”.

You’re quite welcome. That was the primary reason I wrote the article, snarkiness aside. :slight_smile: It’s not quite an airtight case, but it’s the framework of one. It’s aimed specifically at those who claim Bible literalism.

Oh, no, that’s not the point of the article. The article is aimed squarely (if somewhat sloppily, I now see) at people who claim to live their life by the Bible, every word of it. Obviously, they do not. I bet a lot of them eat pork and wear mixed fabrics and have even been know to see their sister’s child naked too, like when you have to give them a BATH.

Honestly, the title should be “So you think you follow the Bible, do you?”.

I’m curious though. If you’re all sinners, and there’s nothing you can do about that, then what moral guidance does that give? And what does that excuse? If a person robs a bank and shoots two people stone cold dead, can they just look pious and say “Well, we are all sinners, none of us perfect in the eyes of the Lord” and then they’re just fellow Christians again?

Well let me dial you in, then.

The issue at hand is whether or not people follow the Bible or not.

I’m saying, nobody does.

Yet there’s a very loud group of people who think they know the Bible so well, they have the right to make sure gay people do not get married based on said Bible.

My claim, to extend the claims of the OP into this realm, would be that these anti-gay people seem perfectly fine with divorce. Heck, Republican politicians seem to have a real zest for it. But if anything, the Bible seems a lot more clear about divorce than it is about gay marriage.

Jesus is pretty clearly against divorce. He doesn’t say a peep about gay marriage.

So if someone is going to justify an anti–gay stance by quoting the Bible at me, they should be prepared to have it quoted directly back at them, and used to condemn them as well. And I’d say my case is much better than theirs.

Or, they can just admit that they’re hateful, spiteful reactionaries and it has absolutely nothing to do with God, religion, Christian, the Bible, the Ten Commandments, or even Jesus. Remember Him? Jesus? Skinny fella, likes to hang out in churches? You named your religion after him, for some reason.

Hate is not holy.

Well, I, for one, can’t wait to see how the swarms of conservative Biblical literalists who populate the SDMB are going to react to that OP!

I know, I know… mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I cut and pasted from OpenOffice, and the formatting didn’t look too bad, so I posted, and then I realized that it actually looked hideous and unreadable. So I went in and edited the article, but by the time I was done fixing the formatting, the 5 minute window for editing your posts was over, and I can’t delete my own posts either, so… we’re all stuck with that giant blob o’ text up there. Sorry!

Yeah, since you are unable to counter the argument, this is probably the best you can do. :rolleyes:

^ This.

Christianity as followed by most Americans doesn’t have much to do with the New Testament, and a rather shoddy understanding of the Old. However, the sort who is like this isn’t here.

not to derail this (painfully boring) thread too much, but…

Where did he say ALL Christians? I don’t mean to take this out on you, but this is a trend I see far too much around here. Someone will say “why does [group X] do this?” and a large number of arguments revolve around the “well, not EVERY member of [group X] does that!”

While that may be true, in several of those cases a large majority and/or the official leaders of [group X] DO do that, and rarely do the posters say "why do ALL members of [group X] do this.