Tonight (April 23, 2003) NBC is airing “Psychic Secrets Revealed” at 8:00 PM Eastern, which should be of interest to those who have not yet been crushed under the weight of this thread.
Pash
Proponents of “psychics” like Edward and van praagh claim the following:
-humans survive death in some form, this is called a “soul”
-souls can communicate with the living (via mediums like the above)
-for some odd reason, souls cannot communicate directly with their living relatives
-the souls of great historical figures (eg. Hitler, Roosevelt, Julius Caesar) show great reluctance to contact the living
-the messages from our departed relatives are extremely banal…most consist of assurances that all is well
In not one case, have any of these mediums ever relayed a message that could be verified as coming from a given person
What should we conclude?
Either the mediums are frauds (high probability) or
-the souls of the departed have very little to impart to the living!
What is YOUR conclusion?
Pashnish Ewing -I saw that show, it was mildly entertaining, but I like the fact that they implied psychics were just magicians.
My conclusion is that it’s not an either/or situation…
Right now someone could be wishing they could warn you, but they are unable to do so. Jesus explained it this way:
Luke 16
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 "But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 "He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers.** Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ **
29 "Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 " ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
**
31 "He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ " **
Any update on Joe’s records?
Nada.
ThanX for reminding me. I’ll resubmit. You should ask for one too. It’s called Standard Form 180. You can go to the NARA website and download a pdf of it. Have to snail mail it though- that’s the law.
As I said, before I don’t have some of his critical info and numbers. Lacking this may cause the request to take more research find his records. This could be one cause for delay.
Please let me know how your request goes.
If you can find any of his critical info that I lack please share.
I’m mainly interested in any evidence about his Legion of Merit award. Since this has never been disproven by the debunkers, for now I consider Joe’s word to be valid.
Some interesting comments from Joe:
Now, having said that, I have to add that it is quite possible for psychological damage to occur as a result of someone’s exposure to remote viewing. You cannot simply shatter someone’s grasp for how reality might function and then walk away from them thinking nothing has changed. Some people can be hurt psychologically through such ignorance. Most do not even acknowledge a requirement to determine the psychological stability of someone prior to their being subjected to remote viewing, or the experiences inherent to RV.** In my opinion there is clear evidence that some have been psychologically damaged through their exposure, whether anyone wants to admit that or not. **
http://www.megafoundation.org/Ubiquity/McMoneagle.html
Also:
In 1979 I was targeted against what at the time was one of the largest extant buildings constructed under a single roof anywhere in the world. My specific targeting material was a photograph of the roof of this building. I was not told which country the building was in, but I was asked to describe what was going on inside. The reason we were targeted on the building was because there was no consensus of what was going on within the building. In fact, the only agreement was that the Soviets were probably building some kind of a new assault vehicle.
When tasked with the target, I described what I believed to be a very large, double hulled, flat-tailed submarine, with both ICBM as well as cruise missile capability. This information was in disagreement with what almost all other intelligence collection agencies that had been targeted against the building. When we were challenged about our information, we provided a specific date, on which we believed the submarine would be launched, which I believe at the time was approximately 104 days out.
This was a significant statement, because what they had not told us at the time was that the building was actually sitting approximately 1.5 kilometers from water and had no direct access to it. However, we stuck to our predictions and information, and within a few weeks of our projected date, the Soviets began constructing a channel to the sea. Within ten days of our projected date, they launched a new class of submarine, which was eventually called the TYPHOON. It was, and still is the largest submarine in the world. So large in fact and with a rear deck so flat, it was nicknamed the Beavertail. I was told that **the reaction within the National Security Council was that “we had obviously made a lucky guess.” **
I would like to point out there were two other viewers who also provided significant information relative to the submarine as well, **all of which was accurate at the time, and most of which is still classified.
**
So, are you gonna send off for his records too?
Having his Legion of Merit award would be a nice piece to have when discussing him w/ others.
You should send off too.
Maybe eventually one of us will get a response.
Military bureaucracy is legendary.
I’m glad that J. McMoneagle has good things to say about himself. You correctly point out that he attributes amazing things to himself. I think it sounds conveeenient that classified information comes up in the things I read about him. Retroactive predictions aren’t very persuasive, (to me), either.
That being said, I *did* receive a reply from the National Personel Records Center as to McMoneagle's Legion of Merit.
If you like, when I get a chance I’ll scan both pages for you and emails them to you. In the mean time here is the relevant text from both pages. (Odd capitalization not mine.)
I asked for the citation of the award. I wonder if I have asked for the right thing. I’m sure that they sent me exactly what I asked for. I wanted something a little more descriptive.
Apparently, administrative officer Marla Brenner prepared this for whoever the commander was in 5/84.
I want the order(?) the commander(?) issued that gave him the award(?).
What do you suppose they call the letters of reccomendation that were written in the process?
Hi everybody!
I was away for a week and unable to access the SDMB. 
During that time, however I did get to see a few specials on ghosts and the like. Nothing specifically on psychics, but what I saw was enough to convince me.
There ain’t no such animal. It’s all a bunch of crap stirred up in people’s imaginations. Whether they genuinely believe it or are doing it to fool/scam others is something to be considered on a case by case basis.
The “researchers” who investigate this stuff are also either genuine but self deluded or scam artists who’re just looking to make a few quick bucks.
Okay, so that was my opinion all along. I just saw a bunch of pseudoscientific novelty shows on the History channel and Discovery that reinforced my opinion. I didn’t see anything that was convincing of the alternative.
It’s good to be back.
GOM:
The story of Lazarus from Luke 16 seems to be saying that, within the Christian mythos, departed souls cannot contact the living except by being raised back from the dead. Therefore, they shouldn’t be able to contact mediums any more than they can contact their loved ones who are still alive. Therefore, mediums are either deluded or frauds, if the New Testament is to be believed.
It seems to me that your analysis is essentially correct. Either way, mediums are trouble, imo.
35 pages? 35? Do you really need 35 pages to settle this argument? Okay. The answer is no, physics and mediums are complete hooey. There. No more bumping.
I disagree with your conclusion. There is something going on and some people have seriously tried to find out exactly what is happening. UFOs, psychics, remote viewers and ghosts. All part of the same deception, imo.
http://www.alienobserver.com/files/text/ufoquote.html
“A large part of the available UFO literature is closely linked with mysticism and the metaphysical. It deals with subjects like mental telepathy, automatic writing and invisible entities as well as phenomena like poltergeist [ghost] manifestation and ‘possession.’ **Many of the UFO reports now being published in the popular press recount alleged incidents that are strikingly similar to demonic possession **and psychic phenomena.” -Lynn E. Catoe, "UFOs and Related Subjects: USGPO, 1969; prepared under AFOSR Project Order 67-0002 and 68-0003
Max Planck would have been so disappointed to hear you say that!
– GOM
That’s true. It just doesn’t mean that either type of phenomenon is real. Rather, the similarities suggest that some people at the end of the 20th and beginning of the 21st centuries associate more with science and notions of extraterrestrial beings than they do with spiritualism and demons, ghosts, etc.
Here the Master speaks on such things.
Here is a link to the CSICOP sight and an article that includes this:
(Bolding mine)
In other words, aliens have, for some people, replaced angels and demons.
– Myself.
I should have said “associate more with pseudoscience.”
That’s true. From my study over the years, they are the same thing. That’s why I warn about the alleged “aliens”.
I don’t believe in aliens. However many Americans do:
http://www.floridatoday.com/space/explore/special/contact/hollywood.htm
“Aliens are a part of our living culture.”
I heard that they took the place of elves, fairies, gnomes, trolls and the like.
Yep. Those too…
But don’t you go messin’ with the Tooth Fairy!
