that would be a logic fail given there are different forums on this site and I’ve held to the standards of this one.
Well, you’re certainly not being very humble about your opinions.
Sorry, it’s not up for debate. You’ve ruined my peace of mind.
Magiver, not all libraries are quiet, not all pit bulls are vicious killing machines who will rend the flesh from innocent pedestrians at a moment’s notice, and not all certified mail is registered. Many libraries allow conversation in common areas now. Manners in these spaces have effectively changed. Learn it and move on.
uh huh. Not hearing something you like in a debate is what a debate is about and not a function of good manners. Telling you you’re a flaming fucking moron would be a an example of poor manners within a debate. But I don’t think this or would say it to you if I did. That’s good manners.
You’re confusing the concept of disturbing someone’s concentration or general ability to do something undisturbed with an idea you don’t agree with.
What Sevencl has tried to introduce as an argument is the idea that nobody can speak in a library which was never stated as a function of good manners. What was talked about was the act of talking in a subdued voice so as not to disturb those around you.
Actually, I started off talking about whispering, then used terms like “non-silent environment”, so that’s my mistake. I’m talking about both, in that case: it’s not inherently rude to not speak or to decline to only speak in whispers just because you prefer it.
Stuff and nonsense. You were saying only a few posts above that people should be whispering so don’t pretend you just want subdued voices. But you’re also missing the point that Magiver is not the determinant for library behavior. The librarians and the community are. If you don’t like the way people behave in the library, you can ask if something can be done. If nothing can be done or nothing is done, then that’s the acceptable behavior there and you can either adjust or move on.
Also, I have a long and frequent history of using libraries, both public and academic and I have not found them on average to be generally louder than in the past nor all that loud currently.
All libraries, or any institution for that matter, have expectations of behavior. It doesn’t matter if it’s a theater or a grocery store or a park. All have varying levels of acceptable behavior. Children running around screaming is not acceptable behavior in a library. Talking loudly is not acceptable behavior in a library when your in an area where people are quietly reading. Most libraries I’ve been too have areas specifically for community functions and areas for reading.
As to the pit bull reference that would be a different thread and I never made such a statement. If you want to discuss what I said regarding that topic then the other thread is the place to do it.
is there a difference? Are we splitting hairs now? And since you stated that you see no difference in the sound level in the libraries that you go to then that is different than what the op described which is kids running around and people talking loudly. Do you think he/she was talking about your library?
There is a simple test of what you’re saying. do you think it’s appropriate to scream in someone’s ear? If the answer is yes then we have nothing to discuss. If the answer is no then I ask why? The point of talking quietly is to prevent the other person from hearing your conversation so it’s not distracting.
Put another way, you feel it’s OK to carry on a conversation regardless of whether or not it interrupts the concentration of another but if I apply that same logic I should be able to drown your conversation out with my own and it’s OK.
when someone is reading that are speaking to themselves. They “hear” what is written. When an auditory sound (someone talking) reaches a level that makes it difficult not to hear the conversation then it’s the same as two people giving a lecture in the same room. This is when the conversation becomes an intrusion.
If you disagree with this then make your case.
Screaming in someone’s ear is not talking at normal volume. Don’t be stupid.
I haven’t been saying it’s hard for some people to concentrate on reading when people are talking. I’ve been saying it’s not the talkers’ problem. Borrow the book or if you can’t, bring isolating headphones. You’re the one with the problem. It’s not my responsibility to accomodate you.
I gave you other choices. If I talk louder than you and it interferes with your conversation then by the standards you set, it’s your problem. Do you not see the parallel to a conversation next to someone reading?
Since you’ve admitted that a conversation makes it hard for people to concentrate while reading then why is it the reader’s problem? You can talk anywhere but the people who are reading in a library are usually reading the material that cannot be taken out. And as has been stated, libraries usually have places designated for guest lecturers and the such. Do you think it’s OK to talk during a lecture?
First - I’m saying people should talk at their normal volume in libraries. Why are you now making it about talking over other people? Stop making this about things it’s not. It’s not about lectures or screaming or talking over one another, it’s about you insisting it’s rude to not restrict yourself to whispering in libraries.
Second - I admitted nothing of the sort. I recognise that some people find it difficult to concentrate on reading if people are talking. Actually, I left out a word in that post, I meant to say, “I haven’t been saying it’s not hard for some people”.
Regardless, the reason it’s the reader’s problem is because they are the one with the problem. It’s not my fault some people have that difficulty, and I’m not doing anything unreasonable, just talking at normal volumes. If that’s a problem for you, it’s your responsibility to address it yourself (for example with headphones), not mine to modify my behaviour. So no, I don’t think it’s rude at all to not whisper in libraries.
It is not unreasonable for a reader to go to a library with the expectation of *at least *having a quiet area set aside for reading. After all, the library has BOOKS, that are meant TO BE READ.
My public libraries are pretty noisy, but part of that is because this dumb county insists on remodeling them into glass monstrosities with three-story ceilings. What a waste of energy to heat them, and the echoes are crazy. The local community college has a program where non-student city residents can check out two books at a time and have full-use of the library and its services. There are some public/group areas, but plenty of quiet areas as well. I make use of it frequently. People might want to check around.
I’m “making it” about talking over other people because that’s what you’re doing around people who are reading which strangely enough you find in libraries.
Well at least you recognize it even though you don’t care. That’s a start.
It’s not about me. Good manners involve the people around us. You’ve acknowledged that talking in a normal voice in a library disturbs some people. I think this was grudging admission of “some people” on your part but again, this is a start. Good manners in this case is a desire to respect the people around you. It’s not a line drawn in the sand. If I’m disturbing the people around me I change what I’m doing so as not to do so. It’s reasonable to expect people read in a library and of that expectation it should be in a quiet atmosphere. The same applies to other locations like theaters or lectures. My doctor’s office has a sign requesting cell phone use be limited to outside the waiting rooms and exam rooms. I’m starting to see this at restaurants in greater numbers. It doesn’t mean people are not expected to talk.
You certainly view what I’ve said as a challenge to you as a good person rather than an explanation (and the benefit) of looking out for those around you. It’s really a small change to make in how you perceive the world. I have to assume you’re a good person at heart and as time passes you’ll think more in terms of those around you.
It wasn’t a “grudging admission”. I’ve never disputed the fact that some people might find it difficult to concentrate on reading when people are talking. What I’ve been saying is they have no right to expect accomodation by others, and I stand by that.
I agree it’s a reasonable expectation to find people reading in a library, but it does not follow that it should therefore provide a quiet atmosphere. Being unable to read when people are talking isn’t universal, and even if it was, libraries are no longer solely a place to read. They serve multiple purposes, one of which happens to be reading.
It really is as simple as “tough luck” if you find it difficult to concentrate while people are talking. It’s not rude to not want to go out of your way to accomodate the preferences of everyone around you. I was always taught “if you don’t like something, deal with it or leave” and I agree with that principle. If you don’t like the environment in a modern library, don’t use them. Or, as you’ve ignored like five times now, buy some headphones.
Yes, it does follow just as it follows it’s rude to talk on your phone in a doctor’s office. It’s disturbing to the people around you.
I’m not going to argue with you any more because, frankly, you don’t care and there is no point in the conversation.
Best of luck dealing with the people you think are rude because they’re not going to care either.
Okay, I realise this is going to come across as argumentative, but I’m confused by this - how is talking on the phone ruder than having a conversation with another person in the waiting room? I mean, you hear less of the conversation, so it should be half as annoying for you.
I am nearly 30 years old and a librarian. Never in my experience have I been in a library where you weren’t allowed to speak in a normal tone of voice when making requests, and most libraries I’ve been in have study rooms or quiet zones for those who need absolute silence. This whole “whispering” and “shushing” thing is very silly and makes it a lot more difficult for me [as a librarian] to help my patrons.
Exactly. Most libraries will have some sort of policy in place for acceptable behavior and guidelines for what will get you kicked out or warned. Usually running and being overly loud will be part of it.
I’m in an academic library, albeit a small one. We allow conversation, but if it gets too loud (i.e. I can hear you talking from the other side of the library or everyone can hear your music), I’m gonna ask you to use your indoor voice. This doesn’t mean I’m going to ask you to whisper, but to not yell across the room to your friend who’s trying to study.
Okay, so let’s talk about this. Your absolutism toward what is good manners is coming across as cultural imperialism to most of us in the thread. You’ve been told by several people in this thread that speaking in a normal voice in the library is A-OK, including librarians. Libraries are no longer purely places of intense study, and part of the changing mission of many libraries is to be a place where people gather. This is acknowledged when designing areas for quiet study that are separate from areas that are meant to be noisier; usually, you won’t find a teen room or a children’s area near a bunch of study carrels or quiet rooms because the goals for their use are quite divergent. Unfortunately, your impression of libraries as warehouses of relative silence hasn’t been true for many libraries for many years, and it’s rare to find a library that still upholds that practice outside of specialty research libraries. (That’s usually because they’re tiny and folks are there to pore over rare items; however, some conversation is usually still allowed.)
Just out of curiosity, how many years has it been since you’ve regularly visited a library?