Cop shoot, kills teen after he skips out on check at IHOP

[fluiddruid]

@nyctea scandiaca

Probably so unhappy with his life and having to moonlight as security overnight at an IHOP (heh - not a cop’s dream job, or anyone else’s dream job, I am sure), that he was just itching for some real action to take place.

Actually, I worked for a police department, and it was very common for 24 hour restaurants, malls, etc. to hire off-duty cops and it was by no means resented. In fact, the pay was quite good and the duty generally much easier than working overtime at the station. Also, there’s nothing that says he was “moonlighting”; that could have been his day off on his normal 3rd shift.

Good cops are generally not “itching for action”. They are more than happy to have an easy shift, without putting themselves in danger, unless the situation warrants it. I don’t think we have enough information yet to determine if this was a good cop or a bad cop, but the fact that he worked at the restaurant in his off time says nothing.

[kidchameleon]

@tagos

Screw you. He was clearly not attacked with a car. He stepped into its path to shoot it.

What color was the car?

[Slacker]

@tagos

Screw you. He was clearly not attacked with a car. He stepped into its path to shoot it.

Such harsh words. I have been wounded!

I recant my previous musings. I was merely forming opinions based on the limited facts presented in this thread. You sir obviously have far more intimate knowledge about what happened so I’ll doth my cap and submit to your expertise on the matter.

Now that I’ve seen the light, only one question remains. What the fuck was that fucking rambo cop thinking jumping in front of that fucking car?

[John_Corrado]

@Martin Hyde

But I still maintain that, either way this is one less criminal in the world. It isn’t a great tragedy to me. I don’t support the death penalty but neither do I mourn for criminals who die.

You know what, Hyde? I used to respect you. I used to appreciate the viewpoint you brought, and had praise for a fellow conservative that was willing to defend his point of view on a outspokenly liberal board.
I no longer do.

Fuck you, Hyde. Fuck you long and hard. I hope that the next time you’re speeding on a highway, a cop flashes his lights at you, and in the split second between you trying to figure out whether he’s signaling you or not, he pulls his gun and shoots you in the back of your head and splatters your brains on the front of the windshield because you didn’t act in the right way fast enough.

It may not be a “great tragedy” to you, but it’s a “great tragedy” to me, because this “criminal” you don’t mourn is the nephew of one of my best friends. And right now, he’s going crazy with shock and sorrow and trying to console his brother who lost his fucking son over a stack of fucking flapjacks.

Aaron Brown was a criminal in the same way you are, Hyde, with the speeding you do and the taxes you may not have accurately reported and the bills you forgot to pay and all the other little shit that makes us all criminals. He skipped out on a less than $50 meal. He was not going to do hard time. He was a stupid teenager doing a stupid teenage thing like all fucking teenagers do.

And because of it, and because of the actions of a cop and the kid who was driving the car, Aaron is dead. Is that appropriate? Is that right? You can be smug and say that it doesn’t matter, one more stupid criminal dead, and all it does is show was a stupid, lazy, shit you are.

Aaron Brown was not “by all accounts” a good kid. Aaron Brown was by my best friend’s account a good kid. Someone who touched the lives of everyone around him and made them better. Someone who was loved and loved in return.

He did a stupid teenage thing, and is dead because of it. Whoever’s responsible, it’s a fucking tragedy. Coming in here and intimating that it’s not just shows the world what an immense asshole you are.

[kidchameleon]

Dude, wishing death on another poster is not cool.

[Slacker]

@kidchameleon

Dude, wishing death on another poster is not cool.

I’d grant him some leeway, as he’s obviously not thinking clearly. Evidence:

@John Corrado

You know what, Hyde? I used to respect you. I used to appreciate the viewpoint you brought…

:eek: (wipes eyes, looks again) :eek: Someone respected Martin Hyde? Does not compute.

In all seriousness though, sorry for your loss, John.

And now, everyone sit back and enjoy as Martin replies to 4 or 5 different posts in seperate consecutive responses. Posting one reply at a time is for noobs!

[Aangelica]

@Garfield226

And tell me, Guin: Were you a police officer at the time?

I’ll point out that neither was the police officer in question at the time. As the officer was off duty at that time and working as an armed security guard, therefore he was not functioning in his capacity as an officer of the law. He was at the time an armed security guard, and therefore his actions should be viewed in the light we would view any other armed security guard.

Cops outside their scope of duty (such as when off-duty) are civilians, hence no more entitled to use lethal force than any other civilian.

That being said, I crave more information before judging anyone in this situation. This whole tragic (no matter what Martin Hyde thinks) situation screams out for further investigation.

My deepest condolences to John.

[Garfield226]

@Aangelica

I’ll point out that neither was the police officer in question at the time. As the officer was off duty at that time and working as an armed security guard, therefore he was not functioning in his capacity as an officer of the law. He was at the time an armed security guard, and therefore his actions should be viewed in the light we would view any other armed security guard.

Cops outside their scope of duty (such as when off-duty) are civilians, hence no more entitled to use lethal force than any other civilian.

I don’t believe this is entirely true. I believe off-duty officers are allowed to carry their firearms as well as give chase to and apprehend alleged criminals, among other things. If you have cites to the contrary, I’d be happy to see them.

[jali]

Originally Posted by Martin Hyde
Also, they were bad kids, they were criminals.

How do you know this? Being accused of a crime is a bit different than being a criminal.

Do you remember the Amadou Diallo case in NYC? Unarmed man in his apartment building vestibule reaching for his wallet shot 41 times by police. Was he a criminal in your opinion as well?

Everyone else,

I’m so sorry to learn of this story and I feel for the family and friends of the young man who was killed.

[Green_Cymbeline]

The latest: one of the passengers speaks about what happened.

From the Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/28/AR2006022801759.html

Police Account in Teen’s Shooting Disputed
Officer Was Not in Front Of SUV, Passenger Says

A passenger yesterday disputed the initial police account of the fatal shooting of a teenager in the parking lot of a pancake restaurant over the weekend, saying the off-duty Alexandria police officer was not directly in front of their Jeep when he began firing.

Aaron Daughtrey, one of six teenagers in the SUV, said the Jeep was turning around the corner of a row of parked cars when the officer first opened fire from a distance that Daughtrey estimated was 20 to 30 feet.

The officer fired “first to the side, then head-on,” said Daughtrey, 18, who was sitting in the hatch of the Jeep on a box that he said was pierced by a bullet about 3:40 a.m. Saturday. One of the shots shattered the rear side window, striking and killing his friend Aaron R. Brown, 18, of Springfield, who was seated behind the driver.

Daughtrey’s account was the first offered by one of the passengers in the vehicle. He spoke to reporters outside his parents’ home in Burke with his attorney by his side. Police would not comment on Daughtrey’s statements because they have not determined what happened.

“The case remains under investigation, and our policy is not to comment on ongoing investigations,” Amy Bertsch, a police spokeswoman, said last night.

“We said the vehicle was moving toward him. . . . Whether that was at an angle or straight on or what, we can’t get into that. We’re looking at the evidence, reviewing everything, to determine what happened.”

[Fear_Itself]

@kidchameleon

Dude, wishing death on another poster is not cool.

No it is not, but if it were to come to pass, it would be a great service to this board.

[Green_Cymbeline]

More from the Post article:

Daughtrey and Breklyn Paulitzky, another passenger in the SUV, described a chaotic scene. They said the six friends were unaware of any orders to stop. Daughtrey said they could not have heard anything Crowe might have shouted because the windows were up and they were listening to music.

“I didn’t hear him say ‘Stop.’ Nothing. No hand held up. Nothing,” said Daughtrey.

Daughtrey said the driver, Stephen J. Smith, 19, of Alexandria, swerved to avoid striking the officer and collided with a parked car.

“Steve-o tried to dodge the bullets at first,” Daughtrey said. “He tried to swerve around the officer. He cut it far to the left. Then he cut right and hit the other vehicle. . . . He swerved to miss the cop, and he hit the vehicle.”

Paulitzky, 18, who was seated in the back seat, next to the right side window, said Brown slumped behind her and Daughtrey’s twin brother, Adam. Brown was gagging, she said, and his friends did not initially realize he had been shot. Adam Daughtrey was performing CPR on Brown when he died, said Kimberly J. Phillips, Aaron Daughtrey’s attorney.

Aaron Daughtrey said he believes it was unnecessary to open fire on the Jeep. “I don’t know why he opened fire on a vehicle full of kids when what he should have been doing was taking tags down.”

[Green_Cymbeline]

@Slacker

The issue isn’t whether he shot in response to flapjack jacking, but rather in response to being attacked with an automobile. We don’t know if the facts support the shooting or not, but it’s a pretty reasonable assumption the guy didn’t shoot the kids over pancakes. Thanks for playing.

OK, Slacker, now that we have some more facts…

From the passenger’s account, the cop certainly wasn’t being “attacked with an automobile.”

–The officer was not directly in front of the Jeep when he began firing.

–He opened fire from a distance of 20 to 30 feet.

–The officer fired “first to the side, then head-on.”

–The driver swerved to avoid striking the officer and collided with a parked car.

–The police spokeswoman said “We said the vehicle was moving toward him. . . . Whether that was at an angle or straight on or what, we can’t get into that.” ( :rolleyes: Give me a fucking break!!)

@The Post article

Alexandria police officers are allowed to shoot at a moving vehicle if they feel their lives are in danger and no bystanders are at risk – but only if they have exhausted all other means of defense, according to the department’s use-of-force policy.

Clearly, the cop did not follow this policy. A kid is dead. Can any of you posters defending the cop still justify his actions 100%??

[Slacker]

@nyctea scandiaca

OK, Slacker, now that we have some more facts…

(snipity snip)

Clearly, the cop did not follow this policy. A kid is dead. Can any of you posters defending the cop still justify his actions 100%??

If that article has it’s facts straight, it sounds like the cop is responsible, and if he is, I say toss the son of a bitch in prison.

For the record, I never attempted to justify his actions 100%. I just try to look at these things from both sides when the facts are limited.

[D_Odds]

@Aangelica

Cops outside their scope of duty (such as when off-duty) are civilians, hence no more entitled to use lethal force than any other civilian.

This isn’t true even next door to you, in NYC. We went over this in several discussions regarding the recent shooting of Officer Hernandez by another NYC PO.

[kidchameleon]

@nyctea scandiaca

Clearly, the cop did not follow this policy. A kid is dead. Can any of you posters defending the cop still justify his actions 100%??

Hell no. Not until all the facts are in and the investigation is complete can I justify anybody’s actions in this case. Well, except for IHOP’s. Their chocolate chip pancakes are awesome. I completely stand by their decision to make them. Mmmmm, pancakes…

[Mindfield]

@Martin Hyde

Because it was a crime. And writing down the license plate number is guaranteed to do jack shit. That means the owner of the vehicle will get in trouble, his kid more than likely. The other criminals get away. And there’s even a good chance something could be cooked up to get the people off entirely.

WTF? How far up your ass did you have to reach to find this nugget? There’s such an utter and complete absence of facts in the above paragraph that it’s beginning to suck everyone else’s facts into its event horizon. How is it “guaranteed to do jack shit?” How will the owner of the vehicle “get in trouble?” How would “the other criminals get away” unless the one person they did catch up with manages somehow to positively convince the investigating officers that no one else was involved or even in the vehicle despite abundant evidence to the contrary? And how could anything be cooked up to “get the people off entirely” from a crime for which there were plenty of witnesses who could positively identify the offenders?

Dude, I think you have some complaining to do, 'cos the clue machine you’re feeding quarters into seems to be dispensing manure.

Furthermore THEY WERE FLEEING CRIMINALS. If the police aren’t supposed to try and stop fleeing criminals I don’t know why we have police in the first place.

Cops are supposed to try and stop fleeing criminals. Cops are not supposed to do so with deadly force unless the situation explicitly calls for it. That is the point of contention here. Welcome aboard; please have your ticket ready.

What if two guys run out of a convenience store with a case of beer, the cop says “well, that’s only $15, not worth trying to stop them, I’ll just write down their license plate number.” Well, then the police get lam basted when the guys get drunk and kill someone on the road.

Wait. I take it back. Get off the train. When come back bring field officer’s manual.

[Weirddave]

@nyctea scandiaca

Clearly, the cop did not follow this policy. A kid is dead. Can any of you posters defending the cop still justify his actions 100%??

You know what? I STILL don’t know what happened. Unlike you, I’m not willing to jump to judgement based upon just one side of the story. Have fun with your jerking knee though.

[Slacker]

@Weirddave

You know what? I STILL don’t know what happened. Unlike you, I’m not willing to jump to judgement based upon just one side of the story. Have fun with your jerking knee though.

Clearly your mind is muddled from all the shades of gray you can see, and you’re going about this all wrong. You’re supposed to make an initial conclusion based on gut instinct, then desperately search for evidence that supports that conclusion. Then rinse, and repeat.

@Mindfield

There’s such an utter and complete absence of facts in the above paragraph that it’s beginning to suck everyone else’s facts into its event horizon.

ROFL! Great response, even though I’m afraid I’ll have to deduct for the sorry “When come back bring whatever” ending. Still funny as hell overall though.

[Green_Cymbeline]

@Weirddave

You know what? I STILL don’t know what happened. Unlike you, I’m not willing to jump to judgement based upon just one side of the story. Have fun with your jerking knee though.

Well none of us were there, so for now, all the information we can gather is from news reports. The Post does a pretty good job of gathering and reporting the news. From my careful examination of all the information we have available, I have come to the conclusion that the use of deadly force in this situation was unjustified. If that is knee jerking, then so be it. I’m sure more information will come out. And I will take all of that into consideration, and adjust my perspective accordingly.

Oh, and I don’t think we have just one side of the story. We have the official version from the police spokespeople (“he feared for his life,”) and an eyewitness version (“he shot at us from afar as the driver swerved to avoid him.”)