I’m against corporal punishment in schools, but let’s not use these silly arguments. By that same logic, lethal injection tells us that it’s OK to go out killing one another, arrests tell us that it’s alright to go around kidnapping one another.
That’s the thing: there really aren’t. You’ve got detention, which you can get used to quickly, in school suspension (see above), real suspension: gets you out of whatever you were being forced to do, and expulsion: punishes the parents more who have to move so you can go to a new school or pay to go private.
You’d think grades would work. Nope. You think that running thing is a good idea? You’ll get parents with notes saying they do not agree to physical punishments and/or lawsuits for the kid who turned out not fit enough to run. Withhold grades: even worse parental involvement: including being forced by the board to pass them anyways.
There really isn’t a punishment out there that’s actually effective to someone determined to disobey. They’re already turning to arresting kids to try and discipline them.
I don’t know if corporal punishment is the answer, but something needs to be done.
WOW are you not familiar with many catholic schools? Unless things have radically changed there was paddling when I was in school. There was also paddling at my public school… when the Late great Asst. Principal added a twist of where you rolled the dice indicating the number you would receive.
This system worked pretty well i felt. I remember the Asst Principal and I were having a beer ten years after the fact and he noted that with his frequent fliers he was able to develop a closer relationship with them and get them through to graduation. While it might offend your sensibilities (to the OP) this is one issue where the bible BELT and I can concur on.
From the Wikipedia article on School Corporal Punishment.
Not much consideration for the effect on the miscreant here, is there?
Yeah, honestly I don’t see how corporal punishment is going to discipline anybody. You’re a tough rowdy kid and you can’t take a swat on the ass? Kids are getting in fights and falling off their skateboards all the time. They might not seek out CP, but if the misbehaviour is fun enough it won’t be a deterrent. More likely this will be used by classroom sadists to punish and humiliate frail non-conformists. Detention is a much more severe punishment for real troublemakers.
I saw a lot of these tough rowdy kids cry like little babies after getting a paddling. The administration always knew who to get to administer the paddling. If it was a female student, a female teacher would administer the paddling. If it was the known thug, they would get the steroid-enhanced teacher mentioned above to deliver an ass-blistering swat that would get the kid’s attention.
In this day and age I can see too many problems with it to make it a feasible alternative for a school, but I like the idea that it gives the teacher an alternative to show that he/she is in charge of the situation. Without it, there is no real, direct consequence to misbehavior.
It is strange to see the situation in Florida. Florida allows each county to develop a policy on corporal punishment. Here in Palm Beach County it is forbidden and parents wouldn’t dream of subjecting their precious children to such a horrific punishment. Go to the next county out in the Everglades where mostly rednecks live and they beat their kids’ asses with surprising regularity and wouldn’t dream of having it otherwise…
It’s about humiliation, not pain. But, with good reason, all humiliating punishments are, shall we say, out of vogue.
After-school detention really isn’t much of a deterrent. One, you can’t really have it with younger grades because if the kid takes the bus, how is he going to get home? That becomes the school’s problem, not the students. Two, a lot of the kids really don’t mind sitting there doing nothing. They are likely stoned anyway. Three, if they mind it enough for it to be a punishment, they don’t come. You only get the kids that don’t mind. When the others don’t come, you have to move to in-school suspension or school suspension, both of which are seen as less of a punishment, and, in some cases, as a reward.
Many people say “so don’t have them just sit there, have them write lines or copy dictionary pages or clean up gum”. Again, many times they just won’t do it, and teachers and administrators are scared to even try to implement those sorts of procedures because you don’t have a back-up–if the kids go along, it will work and be a deterrent, but eventually someone will be all “fuck you, bitch, I won’t pick up this crap”–and then what do you do? The “more extreme options” listed above are actually less extreme and seen as a victory by the kids.
On the classroom level, strength of personality can overcome a lot of this, but on the school level, this remains a real and widespread issue. Schools need a better set of deterrents–something seen as a real negative, something fairly simple to implement, and something with a logical progression of consequences for persistent offenders. Lots and lots of things have been tried. I cannot overstate how widespread this problem is, or how frustrated educators–especially educators at low-performing schools–are by this problem.
Well, yes.
Oh, there was punishment–the stinging ass was punishment enough. And really, the offering of the choice tends to reinforce the real lesson: that there are consequences to your actions. In this case, you have to cognitively weigh the options, knowing that both are unpleasant, and decide for yourself which of the consequences is most appropriate for your actions and your desires.
For me personally, after the first time, I went out of my way to avoid getting myself into trouble again. It did happen, of course, because I was a stupid 15 year old, but I found myself really considering “is this action, while amusing in the short term, really worth the possible consequences down the road?” Most times, the answer was ‘no.’ But there were times the answer was ‘yes.’ They were just much fewer and further between.
It’s akin to my philosophy about fighting. There were bullies in school, and although there weren’t very many times I took an ass-whipping, it did occasionally happen. And while there was no way I could win the fight, I always at least attempted to fight back, because my thinking was that the bully had options: there were kids he could beat up that would not fight back; then, there were kids like me. Yes, he could whip my ass, but in doing so he was guaranteed at least a bloody nose. So, knowing that, which mark was more appealing? Probably the guy that wouldn’t fight back. That little bloody nose isn’t a great deal of punishment, but it’s enough to make him consider his actions.
If your school is such a hotbed of insurrection that without paddling the children cannot be controlled, you have bigger problems then the utility of corporal punishment. And hitting kids when they misbehave is a chickenshit thing to do.
Well, this was a school that, while I was a student, had to form its own police department–it was getting to be too much of a hassle to call the city police to come get students.
Shortly after I graduated, they had to take the silverware out of the cafeteria, because too many people were getting stabbed with forks.
The mileau of my secondary education was probably quite different from the mainstream, but that had less to do with corporal punishment than it did a majority of parents just not giving a shit one way or the other. I was one of the fortunate ones, and IMHO it was precisely because my parents cared enough to reward good behavior and punish bad–the real problem children were the ones who had neither.
Same here,I never once saw a so called tough kid (and I was one of them)not look extremely apprehensive before C.P. was administered.
Likewise I never once saw a kid laugh off the punishment afterwards, though days or weeks later they often bragged that they couldn’t care less about having been caned and that it hadn’t hurt them.
Days or weeks later…
What annoys me is when adults try to impress people what "Jack the Lad"rebel types they were when younger by saying that caning had no effect on their behaviour…
They either had "Wimpy"type token punishments only OR
Their memories of the experience have mellowed over the years OR
They’re telling Porkies about either the experience itself,
or having had the experience in actuality.
Let us not forget either C.P. acted just as the Gold Standard backed up paper currency to lesser punishments.
You transgress and are given "lines"to copy out in your own time.
You don’t bother doing them and so are given a detention as a result.
You don’t turn up for the Dt.
And so you are given a holiday from school for a few days, sorry you are suspended for a few days.
Not much of a deterrent to anti social behaviour is it ?
Now lets try this.
You transgress.
You are given lines.
You know its a pain in the arse having to do them in your own time when your friends are all on their Play Stations, but if you don’t you’ll get the cane.
You do the lines and try not to get busted for the same offence again by trying to behave yourself.
Even the existance of C.P. has its results on good behaviour without even actually having to be used.
Plus the other kids have a more enjoyable life because they are not being bullied and lessons aren’t being disrupted so much.
Yes, well I went to the primary school where the toughest 11 year old made a complete fool of the headmaster in front of an assembly of 200 pupils, by moving his hands aside every time he swung the strap. And when the PE teacher tried to hold the boys hand in place, he was bitten so badly he was off work for a month. What should they have done with him, beaten him harder? He got that at home off his Dad and brothers.
ps. And it wasn’t because he was scared of the strap he moved his hand away. He had already received the strap before in the headmaster’s office - like myself and several other pupils, who it never taught anything but “Don’t get caught!” - and he was just objecting to the public nature of the punishment.
They should have made the school lunch lady, Cookie, make a giant chocolate cake for him to eat in front of his classmates.
And why not. It couldn’t have had much worse effect than the headmaster’s attempt to humiliate him.
My, my, all these anecdotal reports of child rebels humiliating authority figures trying to mete out justice to them !
Children chasing teachers around the room flailing canes etc.etc.
Yes it certainly looks like that some children are so emotionally disturbed for whatever reason, that they can never be rehabilitated into normal society.
So really speaking it seems pointless even to try .
And their extreme anti social behaviour continues to cause so much unnecessary unhappiness to the children who are trying to get on with their lives along side these sociopaths.
Maybe for children with mental health problems this severe it would be better to place them in secure psychiatric institutions, as its pretty obvious that no sort of punishment or for that matter, encouragement will ever change their actions and reactions within normal society.
Who knows maybe one day there might be a major breakthrough in psychiatric medecine that can help these people to be allowed back on the streets to interact without violence with other people.
But until then ?
Or should we just walk away from the problem ?
How about appealing to the nicer side, the decent side of their characters ?
Though thats never worked up to date.
Or maybe try to curry favour with the sociopaths and hope that they will leave people alone if we bribe them enough and often enough ?
The argument seems to be that because C.P. has not worked on extremly disturbed individuals on relatively rare occassions (Or any other methods for that matter) ,that we must accept the unacceptable and resign ourselves to having violent, disruptive and anti social children spoiling the lives of all of those around them.
Doesn’t get my vote.
Yeah, right; being beat on by someone several times their size really prepares them for normal society. :rolleyes:
Actually, the various arguments have included that hitting kids is making them worse not better; that other methods work better; that the actually out of control kids are ignored and the easy victims are the ones who will be struck; and that hitting them is simply unacceptable. The only people “arguing against corporal punishment” the way you are describing are you and the other pro-hitting people as a strawman.
If you like corporal punishment for children, why not then do the same for say, traffic offenses. Parking meter runs out…get your hands smacked with a large ruler. Roll through a stop sign and the judge or the deputy gets to wail on you with a paddle. If beating children is such a good idea then let’s do it for adults.
Or even better; if a parent disagrees with you hitting his kid, surely he should be allowed to beat up the teacher. Turnabout is fair play, right?
Or are the only permitted victims the ones that are small and can’t vote?
Glad you understand. It sucks to be a midget foreign national in the US.