Of course you would. Did you read my previous post?
There’s a difference, I’ll grant you that. But the difference between a real world fight and an MMA fight is a lot less, and seeing how grappling type MMA competitors do, I’m convinced that even a small(ish) woman trained in a grappling type MA would devastate an untrained man. Especially if she was trained in one of the nastier disciplines (like ju-jitsu).
What’s the basis of this claim? Are you basing it on people who have encountered both types of fighting, or is it speculative? (Note: this is an actual question, and I am interested in the answer. Informed speculation is ok anyway. Feel free to interpret the question loosely.)
I’m confused. Do you practice a form of judo rondori that permits punches and kicks?
(Also, I thought you were a karate guy. Huh.)
Incidentally, I’m sympathetic to Shodan’s view, if only because I understand that lots of police officers like to train in Judo. The only caveat I would add to is that RL situations sometimes have blunt or other objects lying around, which is a steps or two away from MMA etc. Then again I assume a hard slam against the sidewalk can be pretty devastating, relative to one taken on the mat.
It’s based on my experience, and lots of the people I trained with and under encountered both types of fighting. By “both types” I mean both judo randori/tournaments, and street fights.
I’m old, and I started training when I was eleven. Back then (wheezed the crotchety oldster) the focus was not as exclusive on sport as it has become. We trained for tournaments, I fought in a lot of tournaments, but we also trained in self-defense. I was particularly interested in self-defense, especially after I stopped competition, so I trained a lot in that aspect. I also focused a great deal on self-defense applications when I taught, in college especially.
Yes, sometimes, although not as much as straight randori. But one way of training was to have one guy put on boxing gloves (actually we mostly used the old Saf-T-Punch that the karate guys used to use) and have him try to land punches while the other guy closed the distance, forced the clinch, and made the throw (or joint lock, or choke). It was not exactly free sparring, but part of the training to defend against street attacks.
But we did all kinds of training, including no-gi, ground fighting only, along with practicing more strikes and kicks than most judo classes (in my experience) do today.
My instructors believed, and I concur, that judo is a complete art, encompassing physical education, sport, and self-defense.
Enough of my soapbox. Is that the kind of thing you meant?
Regards,
Shodan
I do agree that the grappling MAs can be very effective in a real fight. But I am still a bit skeptical on whether that could make up for the disparity in strength. First I’ll start by disclosing that I have no firsthand experience with a grappling MA, so I may be completely wrong.
From what I can tell, judo and jujitsu relies heavily on getting a good hold of your opponents collar, which can be difficult in regular clothing because they stretch, rip etc. That’s why you see habitual “monkey fighters” take their shirts off when things seem to escalate, since even if the other guy isn’t a grappler there’s a good chance your shirt’s going to get ruined just from the general pushing, pulling, grabbing that ensues. So a lot of grappling MMA fighters (no shirts) seem to go for the takedown (where you sort lunge at your opponent to push them off their feet, you on top of them) since on the ground is where they have their advantage. I can’t imagine a smaller woman doing that effectively against a larger man. But then again, I could see a skilled jujitsu person pulling off a fast tripping technique against someone who didn’t see it coming, and lock him into submission.
But this is beyond my area of knowledge and wildly speculative.
I think perhaps the one common aspect in scenarios where the woman can win is an extremely high skill level and the element of surprise. She would have to have extensive sparring experience, because I’m tempted to say without it, almost everyone will get psyched out in a tense situation with a larger opponent. And sparring doesn’t mean practicing pre-orchestrated moves with another person.
That is not to say a highly trained woman will prevail in most situations. The other three elements I mentioned in my other post (weight difference, male’s aggression level and motive, preparedness) can still change everything. Oh and objects that could be used as weapons too I guess, but that’s even more of a crap shoot and probably speculative to the point it’s not worth discussing.
So which I guess brings me back to my original conclusion. She would have to be close to a pro to have a fighting chance. Weekend self-defense is probably not going to cut it. But as Shodan mentioned, fist-pumping victory is not the goal most self-defense classes. But I remain skeptical about the merits of self-defense classes even if they train people to inflict just enough harm to runaway. Again, the amount of sheer nerve and timing necessary to effectively perform a even the simplest technique in a tense situation is not easily obtained. People that underestimate the importance of grit and experience in a fight have probably never even seen one.
I knew a woman who was a Secret Security agent for James Baker, the Secretary of State for Bush the Elder (he preferred women in his SS team, to present a less imposing image). She probably weighed 130 lbs. She didn’t brag, but it was clear that she trained very hard and very regularly in a wide variety of types of combat. I would be very surprised if she couldn’t have taken out an untrained 250-lb man if the need arose, and her uzi was out of reach or empty.
Could she have taken down a 250-lb pro athlete, like an NFL player? Probably not, but who knows? One effective eye-gouge is pretty effective at taking the starch out of someone’s collar.
She was cute, too. I always wondered what she saw in my housemate.
I have.
In modern competition judo you use the opponent’s gi, yes. However, judo is based on ju-jitsu, which doesn’t need the gi. For a lot of the throws, locks and strangulation techniques you don’t need that the opponent is wearing a gi. See e.g. O soto gari¹, Ippon seoi nage or O goshi/Uki goshi. On the ground you can use e.g. Hadaka jime, Sankaku jime and Juji gatame without a gi.
Now, we’re discussing a woman trained in martial arts against an untrained man. I haven’t met one decently trained judoka of brown belt and up who hasn’t been looking into other martial arts, training no-gi and studying the self-defense origins of judo. Also, if you look at kata judo, the self-defense and fighting roots of judo are obvious all the way from Nage no kata via Kime no kata through the newer katas like Kodokan goshin jutsu. And as we’ve also seen before, judo techniques are popular in MMA where they don’t use a gi. In a self-defense situation, you wouldn’t use competition judo, you’d use a gritter and simpler form of judo closer to the roots. Note the finishing armlock, none of the girls I was training with would have held back in that situation, they’d break the guy’s arm.
And I’d wager a bet that 95 out of 100 not trained in martial arts will be stunned and unable to continue the fight after landing like one of these guys do…
And people that underestimate what a trained MA artist can do because s/he trains more diverse techniques than you see in the competitions probably haven’t been training MA.
¹ O soto gari was the technique I chose to use the one time I wasn’t able to defuse the situation and/or escape from an aggressive guy - about one head taller than me - trying the monkey dance on me. I didn’t need to use his non-existent gi to throw him flat on the ground and winding him, and the Hadaka jime was an excellent follow-up one we were down (I chose to control the bully until I could get assistance rather than get up and run, because the situation was still preventing me from running away)
2square4u
I’ve conceded there are instances when a highly trained female could win. But please correct me if I’m wrong but judo relies heavily on upperbody strength right? The kind of strength women on average lack compared to a similar sized male? I would think a smaller woman would have trouble handling the sheer mass and strength of a larger man, while he’s struggling, wearing street clothes.
I appreciate your enthusiasm for judo, but the videos you’ve linked (except one) are impressive but all show male professionals in a competition, which adds little to the discussion at hand. Neither does your judo jargon. The one showing the woman has been pre-practiced and precisely the type of “training” that I said will not help in prior posts.
If by underestimate you mean beat up everyone that hasn’t trained by the virtue of their diverse techniques or whatever, then yes I do “underestimate” them.
In regard to my MA experience, I box and did TKD growing up, as I’ve mentioned up thread. Since you probably didn’t read that post, I’ll repeat that I’ve witnessed a lot of fights, have been in some. Maybe if a judo guy, or girl rather, was there she would have kicked everyone’s asses. But that’s not what I saw. I saw semi-panicked or testosterone drunk shitfests where the one who kept his nerve and had more experience often won and sometimes not. Most fights are a stupid mess and I’m going to stop repeating the following after this instance:
ONLY SOMEONE HIGHLY SKILLED AND PRACTICED IN A PRACTICAL MARTIAL ART HAS A CHANCE AGAINST A STRONGER OPPONENT WHILE UNDER DURESS.
I.e. high skill and experience are necessary components, not sufficient ones.
You seem to be under the impression practicing judo is close to being sufficient. (read: a judo practitioner, regardless or size or sex will almost always defeat an untrained person). My experiences have led me to be skeptical of ANY martial art being able to so completely make up for the many possible disadvantages a smaller woman could face. But again, I haven’t trained in judo or a grappling MA and maybe it does turn you into Batman.
Four – three of them from 300 miles away and at least one armed – on one and they simply ran off? Either she did more than just stick her head out the door or those are some very incompetent criminals to go all that way and get caught. Either way, there’s got to be more the story.
Maybe three are visiting friends. Do you assume that they targeted the vic’s house specifically? Because I would guess that one empty house is as good as another. I also assume that there are plenty of crooks who aren’t eager to commit murder, for various reasons. More generally, I suspect that most burglars flee when discovered.
I suspect the crooks were incompetent, but not because they fled the scene of the crime. They were incompetent because they were caught within city limits. They should have beelined below the speed limit to a location outside of the county. I’m not surprised though: I understand that quite a bit of police work involves crims lacking a high school education. These plans aren’t masterminded by Moriarty.
Obviously, I don’t know the facts of the case beyond the information provided. Kudos for linking to the police blotter.
That area has a really good oldies station which I listen to when I’m working. The way the station presented it made it sound like there was more to the story, which could be found in their local paper, but I was unable to find anything beyond what I linked.
Ok, now I get it. I did a little digging at the newspaper site. Two of the suspects share the same surname. Last year two cousins also sharing that same surname were accused of murder and robbery in Kankakee county, the location of the recent attack. I imply nothing but there may indeed be more to this story.
Thanks, that was exactly my point.
Wrong. In judo, strength without technique and agility is of low value. That’s a problem if one is trying to teach judo to physically strong people; they rely too much on strength, don’t develop their technique and get their asses whupped when they come up against opponents who have developed their technique properly. This I know from experience.
If the opponents’ technique and agility are at comparable - not equal, but comparable - levels, differences in body strength will more often than not be the deciding factor, particularly in newaza (fighting when not standing up).
Except for your shouting here, we agree on this, too. I don’t believe in a two-week self defense class trying to teach women advanced techniques either. However, a two-week class focusing on the dirtiest tricks in the book and applying those in a fast and efficient way may give a women enough of an advantage to be able to run away.
You seem to have misunderstood me.
Hyperbole, much? If I were to stoop to that level of debate, I might say that some of the participant in this thread, perhaps including you, seem to be under the impression that a penis is some kind of magic wand that transforms even an untrained male into a juggernaut able to overpower any poor, liddle woman who is unfortunate enough not to possess such a magic thing. But I won’t, except as a rhetoric trick to illustrate my opinion of some of the arguments of those who seem to believe that a vagina automatically puts the owner in a hopeless position, and the vagina-owner - regardless of skill level - will lose against a penis-owner.
My points were:
[ul]
[li]Size does matter, but so does skill. And good skills can - not will, but can - beat size. Cite: I’ve seen - and been on both the giving and receiving end of - situations where a small, well-trained person has been perfectly able to whup a bigger person’s ass. Both on the mat and outside the mat, with or without a gi[/li][li]Grappling techniques often - granted, far from always, but definitely often - beats hitting techniques. Cite: The large number of grappling techniques used with success in MMA[/li][li]Size, training level and technique are relevant for who wins a fight. Gender per se is not. Cite: my own MA experience. Smaller guys can - and do - win over bigger guys. In co-ed training, girls can - and do - win over guys.[/li][/ul]
And again, that’s why I don’t agree with those in this thread who seem to be of the opinion that a trained female won’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of fending off a bigger, untrained male. And if I were to judge from the girls I’ve been training with, that trained female would probably be brutal enough to willingly injure an assailant to the point that he is rendered unable to continue the attack. Girls doing serious MA aren’t whimpering, delicate liddle bimbos. Not even the small ones. They’re at least as mean as males when the need arises.
The concession wasn’t to you. It was made before your participation in this thread.
Might have saved me some effort if this was acknowledged the last two times I said it.
This doesn’t conflict with anything I’ve said.
This point wasn’t previously made and I would have to hear what constitutes “often” to know whether I disagree. It’s also irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Gender is correlated with size, strength, and propensity for violence. Gender is relevant.
All your cites are anecdotes. My assumptions are also based on anecdotal evidence but let’s not call them cites.
Then direct your replies to them and not me.
Your initial reply wasn’t clear which part of my post you disagreed with, if you disagreed at all. It’s still not clear. If you want me to recognize how super awesome judo is, then I will. I respect Judo as a martial art, though perhaps not necessarily its very vocal proponents.
Very cute.
That’s exactly what I did. However, when you replied to me with your inaccurate conceptions of what judo is, I wanted to correct those assumptions.
Thank you.
Your clarification is appreciated.
Here’s the reason why I might have thought you disagreed with my conclusion.
Though you finally say
You’ve also said
Though not directly contradictory, I think those statements made it easy for me to misunderstand you.
Holy shit this is petty.
Yup, and IMNSHO quite characteristic of the SDMB - and a lot of other message boards as well 
Funny story - this happened to my wife. A not-particularly-bright bag snatcher grabbed her bag strap and tried to run off with her still attached to it. I say “not-particularly-bright” because he was doing this on a train (which tends to limit one’s escape options). Not only that, but he’d scooped up a couple of other bags and at least one of the other victims was in pursuit.
Anyway, a struggle ensued between the man and my wife, during which she landed a kick that broke his ankle. He fell to the ground screaming, at which point the other victim reached them and kicked the living shit out of the man. For some reason the police found this whole story highly amusing when related to them later (including the man attempting to have my wife charged with assault).
Salient details:
- My wife is untrained in self-defense and all of 5’2" tall.
- She is however quite strong.
- She was wearing heavy boots at the time.
- The bag snatcher was taller than her by about six inches but was not actively trying to assault her, focusing on trying to get her bag.
- The kick was a lucky shot but she was apparently holding her own in the struggle for the brief period it went on.
I remember one time I had to fight a guy. What had happened was I had just got home from ironically my kickboxing class. So I pulled into my drive way and as I get out of my car I hear this guy yelling so I turned and looked and saw this guy coming at me. I say can I help you and he walks up to me slaps me and says you better learn to drive bitch. I immediately push him backwards and say to him you better back off and keep your hands off of me. I then said don’t call me a bitch and said what the hell is your problem. He then starts by yelling how I cut him off, I say sir if I did I am sorry but you need to calm down and we can discuss this. He then gets in my face and yells shut up lady I will not calm down you better keep your mouth shut and listen. At this point I have had enough of this guy, I mean I was by myself that week my husband was on a business trip so I was getting really annoyed. I yelled at him you seriously need to get off of my property now before I call the police. I then said who the hell do you think you are disrespecting me on my own property. He then yells I will not go anywhere Zoey, you want me off of your property then force me off. I am shocked at this point that he knows my name, I then say that is it I am calling the police. I go to get my cell phone to call the police he then knocks my phone out of my hand grabs me by my hair and jacks me up against my car. I yell dude I am not scared of you and you better get off of me immediately before you get hurt. He then says you are not and cannot do anything lady just accept it. Now I am completely pissed I pushed him back again and said you seriously need to leave. (I think he underestimated me and thought because H was 5’5 130 lbs, a guy and in his mid twenties and I was only 4’11, 110 lbs, 40 years old and a woman that he could push me around and intimidate me but with taking kick boxing and growing up the youngest and only girl with five brothers made me extremely tough and also made me not intimidated of guys, I mean it doesn’t matter how much pain I have to go through or what I have to do I will get you off of me.) He then pushes me backwards and I yelled at him last time if you put your hands on me again you will get yourself hurt. He says shut up and then tried to swing at me I block him from the inside and open him up and punch him immediately in the face his head snaps back, he yelled fuck and falls to his knees. He then gets up and tries to swing at me again I block him from the outside, I kneed him in the stomach and then ax kick him on the back of the head. Which he goes down and this time stays down. I was then able to call the police and after a few minutes they came and ended up arresting him for several charges which he was convicted.
Cool story, sis! Totally worth bumping a thread that’s been dormant for two and a half years.