Little Nemo I must confess to being curious. I have never heard of any such community where meat is not eaten in Ramzan. Which community is it, which part of the world are they from originally? I can imagine some community having such a rule, but being Muslim and being raised and living in a Muslim country, I can say categorically, that I have never heard of such a community and that such a practice is not mainstream.
Yeah, I’ve been in Kosovo, Iraq, Kuwait, Afghanistan, Jordan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Mindanao province of the Phillippines, Yemen, and Dubai during Ramadan and I’ve never heard of the practice of not eating meat. In fact, it’s pretty common to see an increase in live and butchered animals in the shops for the end of fast meals.
You are in error.
It is not “what Muslim community” I belong to, it is what the Sunnah is and there is nothing in the Sunnah, not even Shi’a Sunnah nor any minor Madhab that has practices that you describe. This is not a doubtful area or an area where there is great variation. It is fundamental and core and it is not greatly varied in this practice.
It is not Islamic practice to not eat meat in Ramadan - or as the Asians say it, Ramzan, and that is all. There is no such thing in the Sunnah. It is not even the case in Ramadan of ‘giving up’ things, which as you have communicated it is a Christian idea like the Maronites, for the Sawm is about fasting from daybreak to sunset.
What you know for a fact and what is true of Islam, and what seem to have not understood. You already made claims about the practice of sex, about other things that say that either you were lied to, you did not understand, or you have known some eccentric minor group, although misundertanding is more likely as these facts are far the Sunnah.
As madmonk has said, it is usual that there is more eating, but in the night of course.
So, while there may be Muslims who practice vegetarianism, or vegetarianism during Ramadan, this is not a tenet of the faith. It may be a tenet of that particular community, but not the faith.
That makes sense to me. I was told the whole Catholic “not eat meat on Friday” was about boosting the Italian fishing industry, and not really about self-denial. Regardless, though the Catholics did away with the practice, my parents continued to follow it because it made financial and healthful sense to them.
A lot of practices come into being for practical reasons and are then assigned religious significance by people who are unfamiliar with the origin of the practice. Especially if they see a specific religious community practicing it. Even those brought up in the community may see it that way, simply because they do not know different.
I think it was Freakonomics that mentioned the study that neonatal developmental problems were more common(?) among Moslems, and worse in Detroit than in Arabia. The cause could be traced the somewhat extreme fasting during very early pregnancy; apparently once she knows she is pregnant a woman does not need to fast? So children born about 8 months after Ramadan are more likely at risk, and Moslems in northern regions with extended sunlight hours (in years when Ramadan falls in summer) are more affected.
I also recall reading that there is a large celebration feast the day Ramadan fasting ends, sort of like Easter dinner after Lent. That makes sense.
Women who are pregnant or breaast-feeding are ALWAYS exempt from fasting during Ramadan, that is specifically stated in the general principles adhered to by modern Muslims.
Yes, but the article dealt with the women not aware they were pregnant - the first month or two can be critical to development and yet the mother may be fasting, and in higher northern hemisphere fasting much longer than the traditional 12 hours of the typical middle eastern country. This is why babies born in a certain month are most at risk.
Like the question about fasting times above the arctic circle, it demonstrates an aspect of the religion that does not “travel well” from where it originated, at a time when such considerations were not relevant.
I’m sure, too, like other “risks” - smoking or drinking during pregnancy, and now apparently caffeine too - the effect is best noticed by statisticians, it’s not a blatant “half the babies born to this community in this month are XXXXX”. It also is more noticeable in a world where starvation and childhood diseases are much less common. (than they were in every part of the world hundreds of years ago)
Perhaps the confusion is that most (but not all) of the Muslims I’ve had experience with are black Americans. And I think it’s fair to say that Islam as practiced by black Americans has followed some strange paths. Most black American Muslims nowadays are practicing a relatively mainstream type of Islam. But along the way there were things like Moorish Science, Supreme Mathematics, and Gods and Earth. Vegetarianism during Ramadan may be a remnant of these more esoteric beliefs.
As for whether it’s in the Sunnah, I don’t see that as being all that relevant. I’m not saying whether it’s right or wrong (I’m not even a Muslim) I’m just saying it does exist in some communities of Muslims. The Bible doesn’t say anything about the Pope but you can go to Rome and see for yourself that he exists.
If it is latitude you would see changes over time as it is not always that the holy month of Ramadan occurs in summer. The calendar is lunar. Only for around five solar years is it in Summer. For most of the calendar circulation, the northern latitudes will have an advantage in shorter times fasting.
The sects that are mentioned were not Islam and they were not muslims, any more than the Druze are.
The confusion of Christian practices and ideas that you have conveyed then makes more sense, for what they were practising was not Sunnah and was Christian in fact.
It is of course relevant. The Sunnah establishes in these areas clear practise. Islam is very clear in this, that innovation, bida3, in the core religious practice is forbidden. Their practise was non-Islamic and at the best, makrouh, if not haram.
It is not some communities of Muslims, for it is not an Islamic practice, it is not the Sunnah and the people are most doubtful Muslims. The ideas are so clearly Christian and not from Islam they would surely be considered makrouh in most communities.
A small group of converted American persons who did not know better, or those who were using the name of the religion for political reasons, now it is understandable.
I can not call this a community that is Islamic and it can not be used to make comment on Muslim practice as this is very far from it, and confused with Christian practice in a way showing lack of understanding of the Sunnah.
The fact that you seem to think there are Christians fasting for Ramadan isn’t helping your credibility.
The people I’m talking about consider themselves to be Muslims and follow the Quran and the teachings of Muhammad. The fact that their interpretation of Islam is different than yours doesn’t make it disappear.
It is doubtful to think of my credibility at all when there is the great distortion that is made in pretending that I have said “there are Christians fasting for Ramadan.” I have said that the practices described that you have pretended are Muslim are in fact not, but clearly from Christian religious thinking and Christian practices.
I do not need credibility, I have described verifiable law and practice.
They may call themselves Muslim, but they are not following the Sunnah, which is the Quran and teachings of the Prophet, pbuh.
The fact they have practices that are clearly not in the Sunnah, that they practice Christian practices in religion. There is no interpretation of Islam in this, the practices described are non-Islamic, even against actual parts of the Sunnah, and are clearly bida3. This is clear. It is not like the question of what is the idea of hidjab or other questions of open interpretation.
My “interpretation” of Islam has nothing to do with this. It is only a knowledge of what clear and established Sunnah is, where there is not disagreement among schools or even between Sunni, Shia and even Khariji.
Do world cup players get any kind of dispensation? Fasting would have been really rough on the Algerian team.
There is the travel dispensation, which is often used in such conditions. Or it is simply possible to decide to make up the fast later if there is good reason.
Yes, so for a few years it is a problem, then I assume for quite a few years the problem is not as serious.
I draw an analogy to mothers who smoke. There is a statistical analysis that says that children of smoking mothers tend to be lower birth weight, more prone to infections, etc. However, any anecdotal evidence will tell you that in general, if you are not a statistician with a significant pool of samples, you would likely not notice the problem. (Plus, in these studies, the statistician would take the most heavy smokers as a sample to better determine the cause-and-effect).
Similarly, the statistical evidence suggests that women who endure all-day fasting before discovering they are pregnant, in the first month or two of development, are more likely to have such problems. (IIRC on my visits to Egypt, they even included no water? It was suggested in tourist literature that if visiting during Ramadan, it was only polite to be discreet, to not make a display of drinking in front of people who could not have water).
And as you point out, as the month of Ramadan cycles around the calendar, the effect is only a bigger problem up north for a small part of the cycle; the rest of the time, the problem is much lessened and for some years less than in the tropics.
But, depriving the body to that extent is a valid demonstration of devotion, but it is somewhat of a risk to the embryo. I assume modern Moslem thought includes a warning to women who could be pregnant to ensure they take extra precaution to be suitably fed and hydrated during the permitted nighttime?
(Also, modern pregnancy tests can make that definite determination much earlier than previously was possible)
Pakistan won the 1992 Cricket World Cup in Ramadan. The players did not fast. And, long standing tradition is if fasting will impede necessary duties, you don’t fast. Pilots, surgeons etc who are on duty don’t fast, if it would interfere with their work.
Plus, it’s not too difficult. It’s onerousness is overstated. I have myself written exams, played sports the whole day, hiked, worked long hours ,while fasting. I am not in the best of shape either.There are very few situations where the your performance will be so degraded and danger will as to need to avoid fasting.
It is difficult to believe that the fast would be any kind of problem in normal observance. Even for the summers. And certainly not for the winters, when the daylight hours are so short that one does not notice fasting very much, except if you are smoker or a coffee drinker.
There is no correspondence between smoking and simply not eating some hours of the day. You seem to have a grossly exagerated idea of fasting. It is not not eating for days, only for the daylight hours. A mother who is eating well after the Ftour and not suffering from bad nutrition otherwise should not experience problems before discovery of her pregnancy.
What statistical evidence is this? And it is not endured, it is a choice.
Nothing is to be eaten or to be drunk during the daylight hours, yes it is that simple.
But it is also the rule if you feel weak and could faint you stop the fast.
This is a bizarre observation. The amount of eating that is done at night is so much that national inflation indices are moved in a very substantial way from the demand pressure. It is also typical to have the Suhour before daybreak. The greater problem is eating too much.
For a normal healthy person, there is not great impact.
Yes, thank you. It is always the case one can make up days later or it is 3ada and I think hadith to also if you think you will not to be able to,to give money to the poor to feed a person for each day of missed fasting.
Yes, there are some strange impressions here.
I can say I have friends who are very suspiciously traveling always during every Ramadan. It is true they have international business, but they do their planning very well.
Some people have a harder time with it than others. Choice in theory is more complicated in practice.
For example, if one’s true reason for not observing Ramadan is “because I am not a Muslim anymore” then that will often cause some issues. Even if the person makes up an acceptable excuse, living a lie is rarely fun.
jtur88: You are right about the social conventions. Still, good adab is the ideal but even in Medina it was not always lived up to. People are people. I’ve known women who fasted during pregnancy because they felt that they would be judged harshly otherwise, even though they knew that pregnancy was an acceptable reason not to fast and there were people in the same community who chose to abstain from fasting for that reason (and may or may not have been judged harshly for it, at least by some). These kinds of things happen.
I must say that I have also never heard of avoiding meat during Ramadan, even among the (relatively few) African-American Muslims I have known. I have known a very few Muslims who are vegetarians (mostly Bengalis) but for them it was a personal choice and considered kind of weird by their families. As I remember, scholarly fatwas generally allow vegetarianism as an individual discipline but would staunchly reject it being an imposition. Islamic law is not only about forbidding what God has forbidden; it is also about allowing what God has allowed. A communal ban on meat (or even a voluntary community discipline of not eating meat) during Ramadan is just asking for fitnah.
Since I’m approaching this from a non-Muslim perspective, I feel no need to make the claim that such a community is not acting “Islamic,” but I see it kind of like Christian snake handling. If someone asked what Protestants do during their services, I probably wouldn’t say that they handle snakes, unless I wanted to make a point about the diversity of Christian practices – “Some fringe groups even handle snakes!”
I would like to thank everyone contributing answers to the thread for patiently parsing the finer points of Ramadan fasting, and fielding all of the “what-ifs.”
I think the willingness to constrain not just convenience, but personal comfort, for the sake of a higher purpose and bettering oneself is the kind of thing that contributes to good character. I admire all of you for your fortitude.
This is a (learned) cultural preference. My relatives in India shower and have a big meal around 10 p.m. and then go straight to bed. They love the idea of going to bed with a full stomach.