"Coward's way out"; attitudes to suicide

This doesn’t reduce the tragedy.

Some people are found dead by their children. Most surviving family members of any suicide carry a burden of guilt. I once spoke with a woman who was going to be attending a 17-year-old girl’s funeral on Christmas Eve—a date never to be forgotten by everyone touched by that one.

The most tragic suicide IMHO is the one where the person didn’t have a lifelong permanent condition, but thought they did—pretty much the domain of teenage suicides. For example, for many teenagers the feeling of loss and rejection after a failed relationship seems like it will never ever end, but it will, if they live long enough.

No, a person doesn’t have to suffer a miserable life just because their death would hurt another person. But the sum total of the effects on all friends, family, and even pets might just make it worth it to go on a little longer.

Sometimes it’s enough to ask someone to consider what will happen with their cat. Other times not even saving the lives of their children would make it worth it for them to stay on.

I respect each person’s choice, but since this is a one-way street, I try whatever I can to convince people to try every single avenue first. Occasionally (quite rarely) someone calls back some time later (months or years even) and thanks us for being there and lets us know that they are still alive and they have made it past that crisis. Usually we simply never hear from people again and we are left to wonder.

I hope this isn’t too off topic, but what is it about suicide that makes it so much more tragic than a normal death?

Is it the fact that the person willingly chose death as opposed to waiting for a sickness/disease/accident/etc. to take them naturally? Is it the incomprehensability as to why somebody would want to take their own life? The fact that people are left with questions? Why do people feel seem to be so much more devestated about a suicide as opposed to a natural death? Why is it so shameful?

To me, a father who committed suicide and left behind his wife and kids is just as tragic as a father who died suddenly and unexpectedly. In both cases, the children will be deeply affected. What is it about suicide that makes it so much more profound?

Not trying to play devil’s advocate or anything, I am interested in hearing everyone’s viewpoints and getting others than my own. I don’t want to say I’m “for” suicide or “pro suicide” but after battling with depression for so long and having those thoughts of my own, I can definitely understand why some people can see it as the only way out. I haven’t had any personal experiences with suicide, save for one family member I never knew and one guy in my dorm.

Almost worthy a spin-off thread. At SOS (Survivors of Suicide) meetings this question came up a lot.

One is the old Judeo-Christian ethic against suicide – to the point that even in the 90s my in-laws first thought was could we get a church funeral and Catholic cemetery for my BIL. We could, of course, but that it was even a question to consider shows how deep seated the entire thing is.

The other is harder to explain in words if you haven’t been through it. It is that its murder without closure because the victim and the killer are the same person. There are questions, tons of them, and no one to even hazard an answer. In any other kind of murder there are always, at the least, like examples who can be questioned or studied. And there is pain and a desire to see someone punished but again, the person is gone and beyond all that. So we have a hard time moving past.

Excellent point. Hadn’t considered that. I was looking at it from a “life is so excruciating for me I can no longer live” viewpoint as opposed to “guy on the short end of love triangle shoots two people, then himself” angle.

If I knew of a way to commit suicide that was guaranteed to be both painless and successful, I wouldn’t be typing this so I don’t think it can be called “cowardly”. Cowardice has kept me alive thru several downswings.

I had a brother kill himself, no note so only speculation. He had watched another brother go thru a 22 month battle with a brain tumor. He had said that if he got cancer he would kill himself instead of putting himself and his family thru that. He didn’t have a regular doctor so it is unknown (to me) whether he had cancer, thought he had cancer or it was something else.

While I wish he hadn’t experienced whatever took him to that point, selfish and/or cowardly are not phrases I think of.

I don’t know from first-hand experience, but I imagine a suicide is more traumatic because the survivors tend to feel major guilt. You wonder why the person didn’t share their pain with you and whether there was something you could have done or said to stop them. Maybe you feel like your own behavior drove them to suicide. Maybe you feel bad that they didn’t have enough faith in you to let you into their world of pain and share some of the responsibility of carrying it, even if you know deep down there was nothing you could have done.

Most people who commit suicide do not leave a note, which only leave these questions unanswered forever.

I had a cousin who committed suicide several years ago. He had schizophrenia. I didn’t feel hugely crushed about it because I didn’t know him well, but I felt bad for my aunt because she’s a very devoted mother (and also very religious). But as my own thought processes have become unhinged as I’ve hit my 30s, I have begun to empathize with my cousin a whole lot more than I did before. I still feel bad for my aunt and everyone else left behind. But I feel worse for my cousin because I know how painful it must have been, for him to make the choice that he did. I understand that he was not going through a poor-me-I’m-ugly-and-have-no-friends kind of pain. It was a “the head-noise is torturing me and no one can help me and it’s unfair that I’m expected to live like this forever and pretend that everything’s okay!!” kind of pain. It’s a deep, dark hopelessness that all the hugs and prayers cannot touch.

I think a person who’s about to commit suicide can know and appreciate how much pain they are about to cause. But in that moment, they believe their pain trumps other people’s by a million degrees. It takes a lot of nerve to judge someone in that position. Because they may be 100% correct.

I can’t give a single answer, as it really depends on the situation. My father-in-law passed from cancer last year, and during his final weeks, I wouldn’t have held it against him if he had decided to commit suicide. I might have been glad for him that his suffering had ended.

However, a co-worker killed himself last year after his wife left him, and did it in a pretty horrible way that had an awful impact on his family and friends. He left behind two beautiful kids, who have to live with a lifetime of heartache. Sometimes I wish I could call him a selfish cowardly bastard to his face.

The selfish part is offing yourself where someone you love is most likely to find you. Sure, it would be horrifying to come across ANY dead person…but someone who knows and loves you would be destroyed. At least drive somewhere far away and leave a note or something, but don’t make someone you love have to deal with your death AND having found you hanging from a light fixture. I know that this isn’t worded very well, but I’m hoping you get what I’m trying to say.

Suicide is kind of self-evidently the most selfish act one might commit. Which is not a “bad” thing or a moral failing or anything of the sort.

I never really understood the whole coward bit. It’s freaking hard to kill yourself ! And quite probably painful ! And you might miss yourself, become a cripple and then realize you didn’t want to die all along ! I wouldn’t say I have respect for suicides, it’s not the right word, but damn. Takes some sand to go ahead and eat a shotgun, or stare out a 20th floor window and not close it back with a shudder. As for the folks who jump under speeding trains I just… ugh. No fucking way.

As a side note, I also never quite grokked the exception people tend to make in the case of terminal illnesses. What, past and present angst isn’t good enough a reason for you, but possible future physical pain is ? It’s okay to kill yourself if you know you’re going to die soon anyway ? Never made any sense to me.

[QUOTE=minor7flat5]
This describes most of the people I speak with. It seems to be difficult for a person in deep depression to understand the positive parts of their lives for themselves or others. It seems to be just as difficult for them to grasp that their death would cause a mini atomic explosion in their family that could reverberate for decades—they talk as if they will simply blink out and life will go on without them.
[/QUOTE]

FWIW, that’s always been one of the main things holding me back whenever I found myself sitting on balcony ledges. I could give a fuck about myself, which I suppose is par for the course when contemplating suicide, but then I thought about my mum, my sis and so forth, the people who I know love me no matter who I really am, and I just couldn’t bear imagining what it’d be like for them. Which of course made me even more miserable than I was before. Life’s fun that way :slight_smile:

In the case of my coworker, he offed himself and left two kids behind because his wife left him for another, and he couldn’t man up and swallow his pride - not to mention, he did it in such a way as to ensure his wife would find him (I’m not providing details beyond that). So, yeah, he was a coward who couldn’t face the prospect of rebuilding his life, and he was selfish for having made a spectacle of his death just to spite his wife.

It’s not about “possible future physical pain”, it’s about constant, present physical pain. My FIL was in agony for several months before he passed, as are many late-stage terminally ill people, and I won’t begrudge them the decision to choose the timing and manner of their passing as long as they’ve discussed it with their loved ones.

How is that any different from constant, present mental anguish ? Some people, life just breaks inside. And the funny thing is, it can take the littlest thing to just ravage some people. Doesn’t mean they’re weak or worse human beings than the dude than can gnaw off his own arm to survive and laugh about it. People just have different facets, different ups and downs and different ways to cope with life’s random crop of bullshit (or not cope, as the case may be).

I don’t think it’s anyone’s place to judge - you’re not that dude. You have no idea how he could have felt or what could have possessed him to do what he did. By definition, your only frame of reference is yourself. The trick is in grokking that not everyone is like yourself, not by a long shot. Maybe to you, a divorce might be something you just sack up, grin and bear. To him, maybe his whole world had just irretrievably collapsed and there just wasn’t any point going on. Again, if you’re not that dude, you have no idea of the pain he was in. But I’m inclined to assume that it’s “quite a fucking lot” before one goes through with suicide.

I’ll grant you that setting up your own corpse is pretty fucked up, though. Then again, as the philosopher Summers once said, love makes you do the whacky.

I like saying “must be grand to be so sure” which is an all encompassing comment about all that we are sure.

It isn’t. It’s *viewed *as different because of the complex sociopolitical/religious morass of our culture, which to this day refuses to accept mental illness/anguish as a) real and b) untreatable, both of which it sometimes it with our current medical technology.

In other words, 'cause any schmo can look at an end stage terminal cancer victim and see he’s suffering. Look at a depressed person, and too many people think he should just buck up, get over it, pull himself up by his bootstraps, etc.

The good news is that it’s changing. The bad news is that it’s not changing fast enough for the tens of thousands of people suffering right now.

More people can imagine physical pain. We’ve all had bad stomach cramps and can imagine how hopeless we’d feel if every moment of the day was filled with that kind of pain. We also appreciate how wonderful it is to be physically do things. If you were struck with an injury or disease that took away your sight, hearing, AND your ability to walk and reason? Only a jerk would not sympathize with someone’s desire to get out of that situation.

Fewer people can really imagine emotional anguish. It’s easy to downplay depression as just being “sad”, which of course everyone has experienced and overcome…or looking at external features of someone’s life–good job, good house, family, etc.–and using those things to downplay any internal pain a person could be experiencing. Most depressed people are told to cheer up by some well-intentioned person because “Look at you! You’re attractive and smart and everyone loves you!” But clinical depression is a disease independent (though not completely) to external factors. Telling someone to cheer up because they’re smart and attractive is like telling someone who has just been in a disfiguring, crippling accident to cheer up because at least they’ve still got a nice head of hair.

People don’t mean to come across as insensitive and non-understanding. I just think it’s extremely hard to sympathize to invisible, irrational hurt.

Actually, I think most people can conceptualize intense angst - soldiers coming home from the war, mothers losing children, children raped by their fathers, Sophie’s choice, that sort of thing.

What I believe they don’t realize is that plenty of much less dramatic stuff, even “mundane” bad stuff everyone has to deal with like mortality, SO troubles, lack of purpose or direction, self-esteem crap etc… can cause exactly the same level of grief in people. For real. Not because the person is “weak” (whatever that means), or whiny, or a drama queen, or an attention whore, or a narcissist, or anything of the sort. Just because that’s the specific way they’re fucked in the head (we’re all fucked in the head in some way(s)) and it really *does *suck to be them.

What other people see is a situation or feeling they’ve experienced for themselves and wasn’t all that bad, ergo it can’t be all that bad for anybody. But that’s not how it works.

Rent some old Japanese movies and really study the motives for suicide. Some can be quite positive.

I apologize in advance for a lengthy response. To cut to the chase, I chose “other”.

As a medical examiner I see a lot of suicides. With respect to motivating factors, at least insofar as those can be ascertained, in a very broad sense most cases fall into one of three categories: (1) People who seem to have a pervasive sense of hopelessness/emptiness/loneliness and simply do not feel like living, they have no specific reasons, they just can’t imagine anything will ever be different; (2) people who have identifiable problems and unwanted circumstances that they don’t feel can ever be solved, or that they can ever live with - a relationship ends, a job is lost, financial troubles, drug/alcohol problems, etc; and (3) people with a specific disease or generalized poor health, they are tired of living with the disability, limitations, pain, hassle, etc., and/or they don’t want to be a further burden on the people around them.

In another very broad sense, and allowing for exceptions, the above categories generally sort out into age groups, such that the younger someone is, the more they tend to fall into category (1), the older someone is, the more they tend to fall into category (3), and the more “middle age” someone is, the more they tend to fall into category (2). As I said though, these tendencies are far from absolute.

Why would a suicide be considered “selfish”? I can think of 2 general reasons. For one thing, it can be very hard, emotionally, on the survivors. There’s the grief of loss; often there is guilt; and sometimes there is a huge void in understanding - why did they do it? That seems to be the hardest thing in many cases, especially when the suicide is sudden and unexpected. A more tangible reason is that in many cases people leave behind some amount of loose ends and problems that the survivors are left to sort out. I suppose with regard to the first reason, someone could make compelling arguments why suicide is “selfish”, and someone else could make compelling arguments why suicide isn’t “selfish”. There doesn’t seem to be any obvious way to decide. With regard to the second reason, it’s hard not to think that it is selfish, and I suppose cowardly, to leave a lot of difficult and messy (both literally and otherwise) problems that others have to sort out, especially if the suicider caused those problems.

For me, being a sort of third party observer in the immediate aftermath, what seems more telling than trying to ascertain “selfish” or “cowardly” motivating factors is getting a sense of how considerate someone is of the survivors. You can get some sense of that from the notes, if there are any, which range in tone from apologetic and loving to matter-of-fact and bussiness-like to angry and accusatory. A much more tangible indicator is the method, time and place someone chooses to end their life. For example, when someone does something like shoot themselves with a shotgun in their living room next to the Christmas tree, with their children asleep upstairs (yes, it has happened), or jump infront of a random car on the freeway, it is very difficult to have pity for the suicider, and it is very easy to consider their act selfish in the extreme, regardless of what motivated them. Likewise, when someone obviously puts effort into minimizing at least the immediate impact and the practical hassle for the survivors, by, say, choosing a clean method, warning people before they enter the scene, clearing up their affairs and loose ends prior to the act, etc, it is more difficult to consider their suicide a wholly “selfish” act, regardless of why they did it.

Very insightful post, eightysix. Thank you for sharing it.

A part of the last post of a real person who committed suicide:

“because everything was really nothing to begin with.”
And response to her death:

“We are hurtling through space on a cold rock in a massively empty universe. Every moment of life is a victory against the vacuum. Try to stay on task people. Every second you don’t give up you make things better for yourself and for your fellow life forms.”

  • Anonymous Internet Person
    (Sorry, I quote this one often on “suicide” threads because I for some reason like it.)

Irretrievably collapsed or no, his world contained two children who were depending on him to show them how to pull through the divorce. And he failed them, utterly and completely.

Maybe before I had kids, I might have been able to have a bit more sympathy, especially considering I suffered from a pretty deep depression from adolescence into my 20s. But as a father, I simply can’t abide what he did, although I’m fully willing to accept that some folks might think I’m a heartless bastard for feeling this way.