Creative lies about Bustamante: America's right wing gets busy.

Great Debates
1

So the right wing blogs, as well as right wing “news” sites like NewsMax and Fox, have been running stories about how California’s Lieutenant Governor and gubernatorial candidate Cruz Bustamante is supposed to be in league with a group called Mecha, which is supposed to advocate the return of America’s southwest to Mexico. Even Senator Dan Burton (R-IN) made a reference to this in yesterday’s Los Angeles Times (requires free registration), in which he says,

We all know how this works: the lie is spread around right-wing opinion sources, then is picked up by either lazy or crooked conservative journalists, and then eventually seeps into the mainstream press.

Of course, you’d think that the Mexican press would be pretty jazzed about a story like this, wouldn’t you? Well, you’d think, and you’d probably be right, if the story were for real. This Los Angeles-based news site has a different point of view:

So there you have it, folks: fresh right-wing lies smeared around like warm butter, just three weeks before an election. They’re trying to lie to you. Don’t let them.

2

HI Chance! Where have you been? We were debunking that two or three weeks ago! Still, what is new is that now a Republican is on record to say the whole thing has been a pile of BS, I think this is a good test to see if conservatives have the guts, to admit that right wing media is jerking them around.

3

Bustamante does have an affiliation with MEChA, something which he has stubbornly refused to renounce. The A in MEChA stands for Atzlan.

And linking to a spanish speaking Los Angeles newspaper to counter the “lies of the right” against Bustamante, hardly seems like an unbiased source. I don’t speak or read Spanish myself, so I was unable to read the rest of that article, to see what they were claiming.

4

Hey, GIGObuster. I’ve been away for a while, and off the Straight Dope for maybe a month or so. I didn’t realize this topic had been opened up here, but I’m glad that it has been.

At any rate, I’m also glad that I at least brought something new to the debate: that a Republican has flushed this conspiracy theory. My take on why this Republican, Mike Madrid, has stood up against it is that he wants to encourage more Latinos to vote, and he wants them to vote Republican. People like Burton and his nativist allies would rather that Latinos not vote at all. It’s an old strategy: if you can’t win 'em over, drive 'em away. After all, on Election Day, the core supporters will certainly turn out no matter what, but independents are a trickier game. Typically, negative campaigning is a good way to keep independents away, and that certainly seems to be what the right wing wants to accomplish here. If they energize the paranoid whites, then they’re happy, but if they scare off the non-secessionist Mexicans (which would be nearly every Mexican) then they’re even happier.

But next time I start a thread, I’ll try to do a little more research first.

5

Daisy Cutter, You had admitted (after being pressured to it) before that there was no connection of Bustamante with Aztlan, I will have to say that you are being dishonest now.

6

Well, I’d expect a Spanish-speaking paper to have a much more level-headed take on the cession of the American Southwest to Mexico, particularly if a prominent American politician were advocating that issue.

However, if you need something in English, try this one:

http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Sep/09132003/commenta/commenta.asp

The author is a Mexican-American living in Dallas. The article appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune, which is the paper of Salt Lake City, Utah—a very white, very conservative city. If you need a source who was born in America of white lineage, let me know. Personally, I’d expect Mexicans to have reliable insights into this issue, but that’s just me.

7

GIGObuster, yes I have said that there is no evidence of any connection between Bustamante and with the organization that calls itself for nation of Aztlan.

I was merely pointing out that the A in MEChA stands for Aztlan, and Bustamante has not renounced any ties with MEChA, something which is a fact.

And I’m not associating Bustamante with the nation fo Aztlan here, I am talking about his association with MEChA.

8

Chance the Garderner, that second article you linked to seems to be an opinion piece, but if what the author says in that article is true:

If you’ve never heard of MEChA – more formally known as the Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan, or the Chicano Student Movement of Aztlan – you’re not missing much. It’s a rickety organization that is totally ineffective and irrelevant in the modern day.

Why does not Bustamante renounce his association with this ineffective, rickety, irrelevant group ?

All he has to do is utter a few simple words and this issue would be dead.

9

Daisy Cutter: I said before that parroting the construction of the right wing media does indeed sound like it is: a smear, as I see from your last reply you have more understanding of the situation but it is sad to see that once the subject arises you only repeat the smear, but I see not that it is worse: I have read what the Republican Madrid said:

[Translation]]“Mecha integrates prestigious investigators of Chinano and Latino studies, and also the brown berets, veterans with many heroes of war, It is not a dangerous or paramilitary organization, remarked Madrid.”
So, it is a Republican now that says: it was not just a smear, IT WAS A LIE that Mecha is an evil organization, of course, some groups related to it may be involved in the evil your sources speak of, but the conclusion is here:

You folks in the right need to show that Bustamante was involved in the specific SUBSET of Mecha groups to conclude Bustamante was involved in a bad thing.

10

And with the support of the Republican Madrid regarding Mecha, why should Bustamante renounce Mecha?

It is clearer now that the whole 6 degrees of separation smear was a pile of BS, you should know that by now Daisy Cutter.

11

GIGObuster, the misconception you have about me though, is that I am somehow on the right, and therefore will take a Republican source as any more valid than a leftist viewpoint.

Both sides have liars and spin doctors, and I form my own opinion based upon what I read from a variety of sources. In regards to other topics, I hold a viewpoint that is quite the opposite of what the typical right holds.

12

It may be a misconception, but you are avoiding the issue: The spin doctors of the right are not telling the truth here, but the spin doctors of the left were more on the money.

Now, I hope you stop jumping pretending NOTHING was learned regarding this subject if it pops again.

13

I’m sorry, but I have found a few holes in the arguments of certain people who have been defending Bustamante.

The most obvious one, which I pointed out in the previous thread, is the rebuttal piece stating that the nation of Aztlan does not exist. I find this highly suspicious, when it took me all of 1 minute to find evidence of such a group on various websites.

14

So Daisy Cutter, you are basing your opinion on few debunked opinion pieces? I am sorry, but I disregard that last “point” of yours in light of the current development. Besides, that is indeed entering Straw man territory, I already showed before that bringing yet again the Aztlan connection is dishonest, and I consider the fact that a Nation of Aztlan exists is important only because they themselves condemned Bustamante, so bringing again this point that some dumb guy denied the Nation of Astlan existed a very silly reason why to conclude therefore Bustamante is involved in the baddies.

You see a few holes in the left side? I see a colander on the right:

Regarding your canard of “The a in Mecha stands for Aztlan”, you confabulated a very misleading line: Yes, it stands for Aztlan, but NOT the loony Nation of Aztlan (this is taking into account the whole BS that was put forth), this is similar in my opinion like saying American Atheists represent the majority of Americans: yes, they are Americans and not evil, but I bet many would not want to see them in their “membership” and they do consider them evil YMMV.

After seeing Mecha years ago in Berkeley, I think members of Mecha see in Aztlan is a reference to the lands the US took over from Mexico, but it is not a call to join Mexico again, many also think Mexico should be out of the picture, I see the reference to Aztlan as a shortcut to embrace all Latino people and heritage here in the US, It is more symbolic than real, it is like a modern Englishman created a “knights of Camelot” and yet, that does not means he will join King Arthur, overthrow the English government and seek the holy grail, more likely he will have a group of blokes protecting (lets say) the rights of lords to continue ruling in the British parliament.

It would be dishonest then to just picture them as a danger to England. And yet, I would not be surprised to see in their writings, howlers that could be seen as seditious to the crown, but to me it is obvious they don’t reflect the majority of opinions of the whole group.

One more hole: I saw the quotes that the right wanted to show how bad Mecha was, many times they were traduced in a very dishonest way, yet another reason why to dump those sources of information. When I find that a blogster in the left has lied, I do make a point on never trusting them again, I however don’t see that behavior on many on the right, or in moderates it seems….

Now, stop showing that pretended ignorance, or I will throw you the Holy hand grenade! :slight_smile:

15

History

HISTORICAL FOUNDATION

The fundamental principles that led to the founding of Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán are found in El Plan de Santa Barbara (EPDSB). The Manifesto of EPDSB sees self-determination for the Chicana and Chicano Chicano and Chicana Movement in El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán (EPEDA). A synopsis of El Plan stipulates: 1) We are Chicanos and Chicanas of Aztlán reclaiming the land of out birth (Chicano and Chicana Nation); 2) Aztlán belongs to indigenous people, who are sovereign and not subject to a foreign culture; 3) We are a union of free pueblos forming a bronze nation;
http://www.panam.edu/orgs/mecha/nat.html
All racists should condemned. Even liberal racists.

**
Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada.
**

http://www.panam.edu/orgs/mecha/aztlan.html
HTH

16

Yes, I do agree Racism needs to be condemned, but not with a site that has not been updated since 1999, so I much doubt it reflects what it happens now. As much as you will like to point this, that is (was) a site from Stanford, you don’t want to know what Berkeley used to say about them, believe me.

More problems I see in the line that the people in the site use: “National web page” and yet those members, that it seems proposed a more extreme position, are virtually gone.

I however do follow the latest from Madrid, and say that it is virtually a non issue.

17

All this sound and fury for nothing.

-Fact: Bustamante was a member (is a member?) of MEChA.

-Fact: MEChA is a racist organization.

-Fact: MEChA wants to take parts of America and return them to ‘bronze rule’.

Rant and squeel all you want, Chance, but the facts are against you on this one.

Hint: ‘Laopinion’ doesn’t strike me as a ‘news’ site. They are certainly wrong with the one blurb you translated for us.

18

From the Berkeley MEChA site (updated in 2003):

My bolding. Seems they have more in common with Standford than you think. El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan is where the offensive wording comes. It’s racist (calling Europeans “gringos”) and seperatist (saying "Aztlán belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans. We do not recognize capricious frontiers on the bronze continent ").

19

I will complain about the racism(?) in a manifesto, however: I still don’t think is as clear cut as you think in light of this:

(Bolding mine)

There is also this:

That by the way was from the site you found John Mace.

Add to that what a republican Latino had to say about the whole thing, and also what Mecha is DOING, this idea that they are racists is tenuous. Now if you want to make the point about the charter, yes. I think there is very un-pc language there, and I agree it needs to be changed. However this exercise is indeed doing what i suspected: when the Latino republicans think this accusation against Bustamante is bananas, you bet they are seeing a backlash all right, but it is against the Republicans.

There is another thread going on about the California republicans blowing it, things like this is the reason why they are: instead of criticizing the charter it was better to bring the Nation of Aztlan to the accusations. Sorry, you do not convince people with dumb constructs, specially Latinos, say good by to us giving or support to Republicans in the near future.

20

Brutus, only your first statement was a fact, the others are opinions. However, thanks for showing why I see this effort (on the whole) as a lie.

IMO this still does not show the racism that was part of the original accusations, I am still waiting though for a source that says Mecha was involved in a hate crime, more likely though they are involved in preventing hate crimes:
http://www.derechoshumanosaz.net/eng_statement.htm

Now why I bring that up? Because the local Mecha chapter in Tempe, is a signer of that petition.