This kind of bevahiour disgusts me. Not the guy’s behavior, the young woman co-worker of the OP- her behavior. She needs to tell him no, then if it persists, report him. Not only for herself, but for other women. But if she does not do so, then she needs to STFU about it and not spread rumor, bad press and innuendo.
Let us take another similar situation- a male co-worker of the Op’s confides to the her about the female co-worker who just got up “I know she steals from petty cash”. The proper response is “Don’t tell me that shit, tell HR/Inspection/proper authorities!”.
Do any of us doubt that workers do steal from petty cash? No. So, it doesn’t matter that it can happen, it has happened or even that it’s likely to happen. Perhaps the male co-worker in my new example is telling the truth, or maybe he misunderstood something he saw, or maybe he hates her and wants to spread rumors about her to hurt her, or maybe he just likes making shit up.
But the correct response is to report it properly, not spread rumors.
The young woman co-worker of Johanna is completely and totally wrong to mention it to the OP. She should report it or shut up.
See, exactly. They need to report it or shut up. Spreading rumors is the wrong thing. Of course, did you happen to think they were not telling the truth? Now you think badly of this guy, right? Maybe he’s completely innocent. Maybe he’s scum. If he’s scum, he needs to be fired.
I don’t see what’s so hard to believe about that. Unless she has rather short hair, it would be easy for him to reach over and stroke it if he’s sitting next to her.
It’s not like people always respect physical boundaries with regard to hair anyway. Women I’ve known who had hair that was unusual in some way (very long or very short, or an unusual color) have told me that people can be pretty obnoxious about touching it – not even necessarily in a sexual manner, but things like strangers grabbing a handful and saying “Goodness, you have such long hair!”
I’ve warned and been warned by other women (usually in social situations, not at work) to never be alone with Mr. So-and-So, or to not take Mr. Nameless’s flirting personally. I’ve warned and been warned by coworkers when (for example) an incompetent middle manager is the boss’s brother and will never get fired.
Do men never talk about women? The whole locker-room talk is a myth?
I think it’s closer to finding out your coworker or boss is a bigot, only he usually manages to imply just enough without, say, using a slur. So if you repeat anything that’s happened (‘It was the way he said it!’), you might come across as questionable.
It’s just remarkable that someone could be sitting that close with his arm up on someone in a training session, with the balls to stroke someone’s hair, and that person doesn’t say anything to them.
I tend to believe it happened, it’s just that that is the element that struck me as the most peculiar.
I run into frotterists on the trolley from time to time - a couple of guys and some women too. Sometimes the women are just too big, so they may not be capable of avoiding pressing up on me, but when I readjust and put space between us, and then they’re there again, I think it’s a different story.
So what if it’s second hand? I said twice in my post that I wanted some confirmation and that the harrassement was alleged (not in those words, however). We can only discuss this if it’s happening in real time or something? Hell, even if the whole thing were one giant hypothetical, it’s an issue that needs discussing and open air and daylight.
Look at all the doubters here (and we need to have doubt, no question of that)–and think what that young woman must be thinking: that she won’t be believed; that she’s a troublemaker; that especially today, with jobs hard to find, that she doesn’t want to make waves. Add to that the natural skepticism of people in general and it all adds up to yet another creep getting away with this shit.
ETA–I just started a new job in Jan. One of the women took me aside and warned me about Dr. X–an old, retired coot who likes blondes. Me today has no problem with deflating any part of this man’s anatomy, if he chooses to try anything with me. Me in my 20s would have been horribly disturbed and conflicted about it. Just saying. Hentor–thanks for the terminology. I was not aware that the term frotteurist existed.
I unfortunately do not find it remarkable at all. As **eleanorigby **said, this kind of thing happens to young women fairly often. I’ve decided to edit out a rather long and ugly personal story here, but something even more extreme happened to me once at a former job and I didn’t say anything then either. I regret it now, but I was too shocked and embarrassed. I also did not (and in fact still don’t) think it would have gone well for me there if I’d made a complaint. I didn’t continue working there much longer, though.
I was raised to believe that GOOD GIRLS didn’t send out the sort of signals that men picked up on. If some guy was touching me inappropriately, it was because somehow I had put myself in a situation where it could occur, and possibly I was sending out availability signals. This girl might think that she should not have been sitting next to a man. She certainly seems to lack the self confidence to go to HR. I agree that HR should be notified, I just think that this girl (and I am deliberately calling her a girl here, she’s not acting like an adult) does not see going to HR as a viable option. I can testify that in many cases like this, the woman is seen as a troublemaker, a crybaby, and generally not a team player. In some companies, she’s supposed to shrug off unwelcome male attention and not make a big fuss over it. It’s not fair, but it’s the way the world sometimes works.
Some young women are STILL conditioned to be “good” girls, and to try to solve problems without confrontation. Many problems can be solved with politeness and a calm discussion. I rather doubt that a guy who is rubbing up against another person is unaware that this is unacceptable behavior. Being polite and sweet is probably not going to get him to change his ways. He needs to be confronted (preferably publicly) and put on notice.
And as for your counter-example, let’s say that it’s a male coworker, says that the female is doing something wrong at work, but has no proof. Let’s also say that there’s no evidence of this inappropriate behavior, for whatever reason. The male coworker would probably be disbelieved, and branded as a troublemaker and rumormonger. Yet the behavior is real.
There are also some men who believe that almost all women in the workplace are bitches or whores, who get what they want by causing trouble for “innocent” men. I’m not saying all or most men are like this, but there are still enough in the workforce to cause quite a bit of trouble for women.
And, of course, there are women who believe that all men are sexist pigs, who will never give a woman an even break.
It would be great if the girl the OP is writing about is able to overcome her social training and inner doubts and either report the guy to HR or shame him in front of the whole group. I’m not going to bet on this happening, though.
Johanna, do you have some sort of employee handbook that covers sexual harassment? Or maybe you could ask HR to send out a blast email reminding everyone about what constitutes sexual harassment and what the process is for reporting. No names need be mentioned.
It sounds like the first step for your friend would be for her to get a clearer picture of Title VII and about what her options really are if she’s being imposed upon.
Enough said. I take you think it’s ok for him to do this shit, but because she feels uncomfortable about it, and intimidated re going to HR, she’s the villain of the piece? What an interesting POV.
Wow. How easy life must be for you. To never wonder what course is best, to never fear that your new job may be in jeopardy, to never have been trained to accommodate and tolerate other people’s behavior, all in the name of being “good” or “nice”. I think you’re male and have no idea what this girl is going through.
You bet the best and correct response is to report it to HR. In theory, that is the way to go. But there have been any number of people in this thread who have said that doing so is not without difficulties for young women (or people in general). A lot of women new to the workforce (and experienced ones, too) see themselves as at the mercy of their employer. I know women who have been working for 30+ years who still actively fear “getting into trouble” at work. They tend not to speak up, but they do talk amongst themselves. Rather than castigate them, we should be looking for ways to enable them to speak up.
Actually, IMO, the young woman/girl in the OP is acting exactly like 99 out of 100 women would act: she is bouncing her take on it off another woman, looking for validation that her POV is not skewed. And as the OP says, it is up to the girl to go to HR, not Johanna. If Johanna does it, it’s hearsay, unless she witnessed it, which she says she did not. It’s up the girl to gather her courage and report it. Most likely, she will not do so, but will attempt to distance herself from the harasser, and avoid him at all costs. That is human nature.
But you see, a 2nd hand FoaF tale is far less beleivable than someone coming forward to make a complaint. The Feds dont screw around with these complaints. They take them very seriously.
And yet another guy has his reputation ruined by rumor.
But you are assuming that he is guilty and she is telling the truth. I don;t make that assumption. Perhaps she hates himand wants to spread nasty rumors about him in retaliation.
Yes, and certainly she could do that without spreading rumors about a specific guy. She coudl talk to another female co-worker, or a Union rep (yes, the Feds have Unions), couch it in hypotheticals and ask for advice.
I had a almost Sexual Harrassment complaint against me once at work. A hearing imparied female coworker went to a ASL translator to complain I had made a “sexually suggestive” sign to her. The translator doubted it- not becuase I am pure and innocent, but becuase (as she said to me) she knew my ASL was pretty bad and she didn;t think I knew any “sexually suggestive” signs. When she (the translator) came to me she asked what sign I had used, I showed her what I thought was “thank you”, but she said I was doing it wrong and yes, the way I was doing it was suggestive. I apologized to the worker, and we all had a good laugh about it. But fortunately for me, the complaint-rumor started and ended with a person who hated rumors and knew better. Otherwise, it would have been bad for all of us.
As a matter of fact, we covered that in training today (very briefly). Title VII had been mentioned in training toward the end of the workday yesterday, which is how she came to mention it right afterward.
By her request, we changed up the seating today. We both got there early. She moved over into the place the creep had occupied yesterday, at the end of a row of tables. I took her previous place next to her at the same table. When the creep walked in and saw us, he muttered “My spot has been taken” and then sat at the table to the left of me. With me in between them, there were no more incidents. He left me alone, apart from trying to impress me with his “debonair” charm. I remained civil but distant. My new friend is the only young woman there, the rest of us are middle-aged, and therefore apparently not prey to this guy.
I gave her an encouraging look when the topic of reporting sexual harassment came up, but by now she preferred to put it behind her and move on. We are in the classroom for this week only, next week everyone separately starts work in the field, and won’t see each other any more, which may be a factor in her decision to let it slide.
That depends on the particular actions or words. The training sessions we (both military and civilians workers) had to attend while I was in the Navy broke the words/actions into three groups: Green Light, Yellow Light, and Red Light. Those in the Red Light category did not require the victim to say anything before they’re considered sexual harassment.
Well I’m not American, but the law as I learned it (and yes I was HR trained) was that for the lower end of the scale, the guy gets a “warning” first - there is an expectation that the victim must articulate that the actions make her feel uncomfortable, they are unappreciated whatever. Of course, as you move up the scale from a slightly off colour joke to full on groping then this expectation is lessened. I would imagine also as the power imbalance becomes greater then there is lesser expectations placed on the woman.
This seems to me to be a common sense approach - which is all too often lacking.
In the case of the OP, he could have been harrassing her, but it equally could have been innocuous / accidental - if she doesn’t say anything to him, I am far more likely to give him the benefit of the doubt - after all, how can we “fix” something if we don’t know it is a problem in the first place?
I am a guy, I consider it quite normal to compliment my female colleagues on a new dress, their perfume or a new haircut. The comment may well be “you look really good in that dress” or something similiar, at times a little flirty (it is well known in the office that I am very happily married) - if the lady feels at all uncomfortable I would of course stop - but I am genuinely making a nice compliment and trying to make her feel good. Should I be persecuted in this sort of situation? Do note - none of the ladies in the office report to me, I am not in a position to make their life difficult in any way.
Added: an accusation of sexual harrassment is a VERY serious matter for a guy to face, there are those in the office that will believe any accusation, and it can follow a guy for a very long time. This doesn’t mean accusations shouldn’t be made, but there should be some expectation that the lady has taken some sort of action to stop the harrassment before throwing around such bombs…
yep …thanks as posted the more serious cases don’t require there to be a request to stop, but for the lower end of the scale there is, and should be, that expectation…
the sooner we get past the idea, both in terms of law and in terms of social mores that girls are delicate little flowers that must at all times be protected the better off we will be as a society.
I would need to go back and search, and see if I can find cites and all, but I do remember reading / hearing (10 - 12 years ago) that in cases of sexual assault / rape when they came to court the base position to take was that the woman was telling the truthm, and should be believed absent corroborating evidence - in essence at the time the rapist was basically expected to prove his innocence. (this was in New Zealand)
This was actually the first thing I thought of, i.e., make a bit of a scene. Going to administration, getting confrontational, etc. turns this whole thing into a bureaucratic/political game, and a man with years of experience in government would probably win that scenario. But women–especially young, pretty ones–have LOADS more social power than men do. She should just make him look bad. I’d bet it would work better and more quickly than anything else she could do.
Having said that, I’m still in the camp that is skeptical about this incident happening exactly as described. Yeah, I HAVE seen these stories made up, and innocuous actions by innocent people blown way out of proportion. The woman in question should just sit somewhere else.
That’s because in the British legal system (on which New Zealand’s is based) there is no overt presumption of innocence, as there is in the U.S. It’s that way for all crimes, not just sexual assault.