Cretien, guns, Don Cherry, and that fucking war.

The BBQ Pit
1

Rather than waste bandwidth on several threads I thought I’d just throw them all together since they all relate to each other…

It was announced yesterday that the Liberals are going to dump another 59 million dollars into supporting our national gun registry, a program designed to make law abiding citizens register all the firearms they own.

Now, this registry seems like a fairly good idea if knowing which of your law abiding citizens are toting guns is important, but I don’t think the criminals are rushing out to register their illegal or restricted weapons.

What’s seriously fucked up is that a program designed to have a net cost of 2 million dollars is expected to cost taxpayers ONE BILLION dollars by the time things are done. One of the reasons cited for the high cost overuns is the opposition the program has faced from many Canadians.

Hmmm… Canadians are opposed to a program that has not proven itself to be effective and will cost them ONE BILLION DOLLARS. What a fucking surprise.

And there sits our beloved Prime Minister and his party supporting the decision to throw another 59 million dollars into the black hole that is the National Gun Registry.

If I hired someone to do a job and they told me that the final cost would be 100 times more than the original quoted price I’d fire their asses in less time than it takes me to blink.

Now, there’s a big fuss going on because our official ranter, Don Cherry, spouted off on Coach’s Corner about Canada’s non involvement in the Iraq war. He feels that we should be sending troops there to support the Coalition forces and kick some ass.

(In case you don’t know, Cretien has decided that Canada is going to sit this one out).

People are upset that he (Don) used his position to make a political statement… hello? It’s Donald fucking Cherry people… a guy who gets paid $750,000 a year to spout off on any topic that crosses his mind. He’ll never make a good politician no matter what the “Don Cherry for P.M.” movement believes because he says exactly what’s on his mind with no regard for who he’s going to piss off. He’s just doing his job.

Cretien on the other hand needs to get his pink slip and walking papers right fucking now because he hasn’t got a fucking clue.

Finally, this war is really pissing me off. It keeps me up at night and I keep waiting for the Iraqi soldiers to realize that they are totally fucked. Do they actually believe they can win against the monster that is the American war machine?

Don’t they know if they keep this up, Canada will be forced to send in troops to tip the scales in the coalition’s favour?

On a final note, perhaps we can be put on America’s hit list as we too are being lead by a maniacal dictator who has no fucking regard for what the people think.

Some might say we’ve done nothing to provoke the wrath of our southern neighbour but I disagree.

Two words…

Celine Dion.

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Yes, the Celine Dion thing is completely unforgivable. Sorry, but Canada’s next after Iraq. :slight_smile:

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Good on Don. I disagree with him one-hundred percent, but at least once the fit hit the shan he didn’t cower like the Dixie Chicks. Nothing makes you look more like an uninformed reactionist (or “official ranter” in this case) than making a strong statement then backing down from it.

That being said, I find it difficult to believe that Cretien has done anything wrong in this case. He hasn’t said “Screw you, USA” - he leaves that to his backbenchers, apparently. In fact, based on the 4-5 consecutive weeks with tens of thousands of protestors camping outside the local US consulate, marching in the streets and generally protesting the invasion of Iraq, Cretien may actually be acting in the majority’s interests for once. Yes Don shares the opinon of many people in the country, but I don’t think he speaks for the masses in this case.

Just because JC didn’t pile on the USA war machine shouldn’t be viewed as an act against the US. He said, clearly, that Canada would not take part in an action in Iraq that wasn’t sanctioned by the UN. And this invasion of Iraq is not sanctioned by the UN. And seeing how W only managed to muster 40 countries (out of more than 190 on the globe) to his side, clearly much of the world also believes this attack to be unfavorable.

I would not support a government that overtly determines its course based on the fear of a US reprisal. The subtle fear that has guided our domestic and foreign policy has been bad enough. The fact that we have tried to get a gun registry (and yes, its fucked in execution but not concept) is one more sign that Canada is its own country that doesn’t look to the US for affirmation on everything it does. If the US wants to look at lack of support as a sign of disapproval, then good, because it is. If they want to try to bully us into supporting them, then they are only strengthening the resolve of the people who argue against this war in the first place. If Cretien backed down we would all look like the Dixie Chicks.

As for the non-capitulation of the Iraqi soldiers, WTF are you thinking? No shit they aren’t going to lay down and take it. Love or hate Cretien, if Bush decided that a regime change was needed in Canada and then invaded, I’ll be damned if I am going to grab my ankles and take it. I would say fuck them, or any other force thinking that might makes right. The Iraqis don’t like Sadam, but they sure as hell don’t care for the US to be dictating to them. They are fighting for themselves and their country and self-determination. Look at the response of the natives in Oka last decade. Sure they were fucked, up against the militant arm of the Candian government, but they fought back. To us it seems they were “totally fucked” but to them they had a cause. If the mere threat of losing something makes one willing to give it up, it can’t have meant that much in the first place. I, along with many of the Iraqi people, would rather be dead than a subjugated coward.

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Celine Dion is great! (For Export only - not for internal use.)

Her caterwauling is an integral part of US psy-ops missions, too.

Heh.

As for Mr. Cherry, I just wish it was possible to have muted that ugly-assed tie, too.

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The older I get the more I like Celine-- although she was cuter with longer hair…

As for the gun registry-- Feynn fails to realize that us city folks think everyone who holds a gun is just a criminal waiting to happen. Seeing as how everyone who is shot during a domestic dispute was formerly a law-abiding citizen, we’ve got some justification for our views.

And as for Iraq-- doesn’t ANYONE get that Iraqi soldiers and Saddam Hussein think they are on the side of the angels? Nobody, not even Osama bin Laden, thinks that he’s evil. Everyone who does nasty shit has a perfectly good rationalization for their behaviour.

The Republican Guard will fight to the last man, and years from now they will be revered in the same way Texans remember the Alamo.

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I won’t comment on the gun-registry thing. I’ll let Canadians figger that one out on their own. :slight_smile:

But as for war involvement… really, I’d feel much better if it were more than just the US and the UK in Iraq. When they topple the regime and all, it’s gonna be a giant US/UK gas station. I’d really like to have some other forces involved, just so they can say “We have some say in what happens, too,” to prevent exploitation of the country when all is said and done.

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This “city folk” most certainly does not. Don’t put words into the mouths of many millions of people. You make yourself look stupid.

I’m not sure if that’s a thoughto or not, but I think you meant to say that everyone who shoots someone during a domestic dispute was a formerly law-abiding citizen. Allow me to point out that the same is true of everyone who punches someone during a domestic dispute, or beats them with a shovel, or kicks them in the balls. As far as I know (and I am not an expert on Canadian politics), Mr. Chretien has not yet attempted to ban hands, shovels and feet. Thank God for that.

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or maybe they’ll be seen like the Waffen SS. Only time will tell.

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And, more’s the point, Messers. Chretien and Rock have yet to demonstrate or prove that the one billion dollars (say it like Dr. Evil for maximum effect) will actually do what they say it will, that is, reduce gun crime.

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Chretien is totally out of touch with the Canadian people.

The majority of Canadians want the gun registry scrapped. At least this Canadian thinks heads should roll over the collossal screw-up that this thing represents. Either the people who did the original estimation were completely incompetant, or the government knew it would cost a lot more but low-balled the cost by an order of magnitude in order to sell it to the people. Either way, I want someone’s head on a plate.

As for our relationship with America, 90% of Canadians want better relations with the United States, and 60% of Canadians think we should have stood with the U.S. and supported the war effort, including sending soldiers to Iraq.

And yet, our government is full of people who call Americans ‘bastards’, and say, “American can screw itself”. This is our government saying this, mind you - not some pundit in the Sun.

It’s disgraceful. Lesson for Americans - thank goodness for the two-party system that you have, and the close battles they fight. Because in Canada, our opposition self-destructed, and now our governmnet is run like a banana-republic fiefdom.

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Yeah, the gun registry thing is silly. The firearms possession license, and safety instruction, I can see a point to, and in fact the stats I’ve seen (granted it was in the context of said course…) did show a decline in accidents after that got put in place. But (with anecdotal exceptions, of course), while fire-arms-homicides declined, total homicides did not.

The main problem as I see it with trying to register firearms is that most of the good ones are military surplus stock from pre-WWII, and not really serial-numbered well. Plus then they get sporterized, a new stock, re-barrelled and re-chambered for a different caliber, so how the heck can you identify the thing, let alone track it?

And if I can add a personal rant, I just bought a rifle. The seller contacted the firearms center to initiate the paperwork for the transfer, and paid the transfer fee, tacking it onto my bill. So then the firearms center calls me to confirm the transaction, and takes my visa number to charge the transfer fee to me. So if this $many-billion is being dumped into a system that can’t even track whether the frikkin’ transaction’s been paid for twice, what assurance do we have that they can actually track firearms???

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Nit: So what? The Waffen SS was largely a group of ordinary soldiers fighting for their homeland.

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“That being said, I find it difficult to believe that Cretien has done anything wrong in this case.”

kylen - The main case I was referring to was the Liberals continued support of the financial black hole that is the National Gun Registry. I support gun control but have a hard time swallowing $998,000,000 in cost overuns.

Because of our parlimentary structure MPs cannot vote agaist a bill if it’s not in accordance with the wishes of their constituents (that’s us) without suffering the real threat of being expelled from caucus and be forced to sit as an independent. Cretien knows that most Canadians are opposed to having another dime put into the fucking mess that is the N.G.R. yet he has gotten the additional 59 million by threatening MPs with expulsion if they vote against the party line.

The MPs are guilty of being spineless and failing to respect the wishes of their constituents, it’s because they are looking out for their own sorry asses and because they want to stick around long enough to earn those lush pensions that kick in after six years of service.

I actually appreciate and gasp respect Cretien’s position regarding our non-involvement in the Iraqi war for as long as that’s the majority opinion of Canadians. Recent polls might suggest that as many as 60% of Canadians are supportive of the U.S. and would approve of our becoming involved in the actions against Iraq but we all know polls can be twisted to support anything… I bet we could even get the polls to say that most Canadians love Cretien.

We are providing $100,000,000 for humanitarian aid and if that one billion dollars that has gone into gun control had perhaps gone into supporting and sustaining our military we might actually be a real threat to the Hussein regime as we might be able to muster more than a couple of canoes and a spotted owl.

I also respect Don Cherry even if I don’t agree with him. Why people are still surprised at what comes out of his mouth is a mystery for the ages just like his choice in ties.

I know the Iraqi soldiers aren’t going to give up and start waving white flags but one can hope can’t they? It would save a great number of lives and prevent needless deaths. I’m sure they’re sitting out there in the sand simply terrified that Canada will join the war effort… those spotted owls can be nasty when provoked.

And as for the U.S. invading us (I hope you know I was kidding)… we’d just have to get Celine to come home and start singing “I Drove All Night” and they’d know they didn’t have a hope against such a heinous weapon of mass destruction.

Plus… there’s always the genetically altered killer beavers.

oops… did I say that out loud?

So much for our secret weapon.

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I was simply pointing out that just because a group of soldiers fight to the end for a hopeless cause doesn’t mean future generations of their countrymen will ‘revere’ them.

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And what homeland would that be ? Germany ? Austria ? The Netherlands ? Denmark ? India ? Russia ? or any other countries ? (citizens of all these nations and many others had members in the Waffen SS).

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Three things make me suspicious about those numbers:[ol]
[li]They contradict every previous poll, though nothing that’s happened recently should encourage the desire to go to war.[/li][li]They were conducted for the Economic Forum[/li][li]Your link is to the laughing stock of Canadian journalism, The National Post, a newspaper that once refered to protestors as “faggots” on a front-page news story, and not as part of a quotation.[/ol][/li]
And the way the question is phrased – “Do you want a better relationship with the US?” Honestly, who would say No? The question is, what are we prepared to give up for that? For me, our sovreignty and our conscience is not on the table.

As for retaliation by the US, I like Naomi Klein’s take on it. Frankly, though, if Emperor Dubyatine and Darth Cheney threatened to turn the Death Star on Sudbury, I still wouldn’t be willing to join this war.

Try walking the streets of Montreal and listening to conversations, Sam. The feeling here, even among generally conservative people, is that Chrétien hasn’t gone nearly far enough in condemning this war.

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I don’t think one can make a blanket statement like that without citing something. From what I can remember of the last several domestic disputes reported, the one with the gun was not a former law-abiding citizen, but someone with a criminal record. I do not have a cite other than my flawed memory.

it’s Donald S. Cherry, not Donald F. Cherry :smiley:

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So, you’re saying that you don’t want to improve Sudbury?

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I have seen the article in the National Post. Of course, the National Post is about the strongest opposition to the Cretien government in Canada so not surprisingly they come out with statistics showing opposition to the current plan.

To put it in simple terms, the pro-war supporters have not mobilized to the extent as the anti-war protesters. Here in Vancouver, the pro-olympic campaign was as visible as the anti-olympics campaign, and the pro-side won the plebiscite. So I take the lack of pro-war rallys to mean that the war supporters aren’t as numerous or as convinced as the protesters.

As for the gun registry, hell, yah, a billion on a two-million plan is way out of order, but the whole house is to blame for cost over-runs. There is significant opposition to the federal liberals, and all bills that pass the house must get through it. For the first time in his tenure, JC had a bill shot down in the house. That says to me that the entire house is thinking a bit more critically these days. I don’t know what we have for oversight comittees, but if I were the CA or any other opposition parties, I would be adding riders left and right to any bill ensuring this doesn’t happen again on any government program. Fiscal fiascos are part and parcel of government, unfortunately, and the opposition (not just the incumbent) need to take some of the heat. After all, that’s why they are there :slight_smile:

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Valid point, although I did say “largely”, and most of them were ordinary German soldiers defending Germany.