Ah, good one. Though here I meant “right” as clairobscur used it, not in any legal sense.
Maybe better put, is it right? Does your personal amusement take precedence over all other people’s feelings in all cases?
Just out of curiosity, is cultural appropriation racist if one has good reasons for hating the culture from which one is “appropriating”?
Let’s say a white person goes to a Halloween party dressed as a gangsta rapper. He’s got the baggy clothes, the bling, the gold teeth, the works. He’s basically done everything except black up.
Anyway, he gets there and he’s really acting the part. He’s going on about ho’s and being all like “Bitch, where my purple drank at?” and just generally acting like the most outlandish caricature of a gangsta rapper imaginable.
But let’s say he’s gay. And he’s doing all this because he feels he’s earned the right. He feels he’s earned the right because he’s grown up in a culture where men (and some women) can and have become millionaires writing songs about killing faggots. People like DMX (“Last I heard, y’all niggas was havin’ sex, with the same sex, I show no love, to homo thugs, empty out and reload and throw more slugs” - Where The Hood At?), or Eminem (“I wanna break a motherfucker’s table over the back of a couple faggots and crack it in half” - Rap God), or Goodie MOB ("“Ain’t no due process, For boys that become girls or vice versa, Field niggas control this, Pin the hollow point tip on this gay rights activist…” - Still Standing). Bear in mind, there are so many more examples out there, and many of them are much worse than these.
He thinks to himself “Well, since hip-hop clearly hates me, I’ve no obligation to be respectful to the hip-hop community, so I’m gonna take the piss. And if anyone says anything to me about ‘appropriating’ hip-hop culture I’ll give them a lecture about hip-hop appropriating gay people’s lives for money.”
Would that be justifiable cultural appropriation? I honestly can’t decide.
IOW, it’s completely arbitrary despite being presented as a general moral principle that any decent person should follow.
This whole “cultural appropriation” concept was completely made up in order to give a general and theoretical backing to what are very specific and ironically culturally dependant grievances. Then it took a life of its own, and privileged middle-class college students are all over people who dare wearing a kimono.
Of course, it can’t be generalized. No principle can without falling into ridicule. But some principles can be defended in the wide majority of situations, or at least most of the time. But the principles behind the wrongness of “cultural appropriation” can’t be generalized at all. It falls down as soon as you try to extend it outside of very specific situations. Why is it wrong to dress up as a Chinese and not as a Scotsman? Why Amerindians have a right not to be offended about things they hold dear and Muslims don’t?
There might be very good answers to these specific questions. But the problem arise when instead of stating “in the cultural, historical and social context of the USA, blackfaces are offensive” people state “cultural appropriation is wrong”. Especially in conjunction with a cultural evolution that seems to lead towards “I should be sheltered from anything that makes me feel even slightly bad or slightly offended”. I’m yet to see a single argument backing the idea that cultural appropriation is wrong that doesn’t make equally wrong tons of things that are either perceived as neutral (wearing a kilt) or as beneficial (freedom of expression, cultural diffusion).
People should stick to argue with specific arguments about specific issues rather than dreaming up general principles that end up only applying when they feel like they should apply, which is in a very small number of situations, and are useless or deleterious as soon as you try to generalize the concept.
Wow. You hold no principles in life?
All of them are wrong when they are without respect or reason. None of them, potentially, with.
Assuming one believes in having principles at all, I don’t see why it’s wrong to try to extrapolate the principle which makes one situation problematic, so as to be able to apply it elsewhere. To me that seems to generate impulses toward fairness, equality, mutual respect, all sorts of good things. And it means that, at least sometimes, one is able to recognize new, potentially abusive dynamics before they actually really hurt people. How is that not to the good?
Neither of those sound like cultural appropriation. A Hitler themed roller coaster isn’t the Chinese people adopting a portion of a foreign culture. An Indian buffoon dressed as an Englishman is caricaturing, not appropriation. Cultural appropriation is the Indian/Chinese wearing suits, listening to western music, adopting English phrases, and things like that.
I’m still waiting for someone to explain why I shouldn’t be able to enjoy things from foreign cultures I like. Does anyone really think I shouldn’t, for example, do Yoga?
Well put!
No. Because I’m sensitive.
I can see the latter even if I also don’t care about it.
As for your first example, minstrel shows: They are indeed reprehensible. I would argue that it’s not because of cultural appropriation, though. Perhaps it is simply my Canadian ignorance but I don’t see what part of black American culture they take (being dark-skinned isn’t cultural). Also, they would be insulting and cruelly mocking whether or not black Americans have ever done anything which it borrows.
The term “cultural appropriation” seems to be used to mean “making an offensive reference to another ethnic group”. I would have thought that cultural appropriation would mean taking something that is part of another culture, not much more and not much less.
And lines are going to be drawn arbitrarily, on a case by case basis, based on cultural expectations, context, and a lot of other factors. For instance, pretty much every single joke in existence is mocking someone’s preferences, caricaturing some categories of people, belittling some people’s bad experiences…Are lawyer jokes fair for lawyers? Should we ban them because some deserving, dedicated, lawyer somewhere is pissed to hear one for the umpteenth time at the end of a day of hard and poorly paid work as a public defender? How dare people offend lawyers simply for their amusement?
I don’t dispute that people should sometimes refrain from offensive behaviours. I dispute specifically the concept of cultural appropriation. If you have to draw lines “this is acceptable”, “this is acceptable in general, but not in this context”, etc… what purpose exactly does it serve?
It is in both sense. Again, do you think it’s morally wrong to draw the prophet because it offends Muslims?
“All other people’s” feelings? Let’s assume I dress up as a Chinese. There are 1.2 billion of them. Do you think they all would be offended?
How offended would you be to know that at this moment in France someone is dressing up as a stereotypical American? Is telling American jokes? Is mocking American ways? Is faking an American accent? Is organizing an American themed party with all sort of grossly caricatural stuff? If you met an American who was actually offended by all these things, would you state that he’s perfectly justified in feeling this way, and that those people should put an end to all these offensive actions only done for their amusement? I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t. But if, amongst all the other caricatures, one of the guest showed up dressed up like a Sioux, it suddenly would change everything? The offended Amerindian is more justified in his feelings than the offended jingoistic white Texan how exactly?
If it’s a matter of numbers, what if 99.9% of people are amused, and one lone guy not amused at all? Will you refrain from telling some fun story because there might be someone in the attendance for whom it will hit too close to home? What if the audience is large enough (for instance TV) and it’s statistically certain that hearing your story will be hurtful for at least some people? What at the contrary if a minority is amused but billions are offended? Should you refrain from joking about god because so many people will feel offended?
Is there ever a situation when your amusement takes precedence over other people’s feelings? I’m pretty sure there are. So, why exactly are you singling out “cultural appropriation”? Is it worse to wear a feather bonnet knowing that some people take them super seriously, to tell a dead baby joke knowing that some people had to actually mourn a baby, to show a violent action scene in a movie knowing that some people suffer from PTSD, to use fireworks on national day knowing that some people have a phobia of them, to make fun of some hobby or job knowing that some extremely good people have this hobby or job?
Is it cultural appropriation if a Scotsman does it?
The Hitler-coaster is almost exactly analogous to any number of cases of people taking something with enormous symbolic importance somewhere and using it as casual decoration meant to hint at vague exoticness. It’s the “Om tee shirt” of Chinese roller coasters.
The British Buffoon may have been parody, but it may not have been. One of the sticky things that happens when drawing on a culture you have limited experience with is that you don’t necessarily know the difference between “Japanese traditional dress” and “Geisha Ninja Samurai”. You don’t know what looks sensible and what looks ridiculously exaggerated.
Very few people, outside of ultra extremists, are saying not to enjoy music or other pieces of culture. Most people are just asking to use good taste and be open to feedback if you want to go around dressing up as other people or selling stuff you don’t really have a solid grasp on.
Oh! I hold many principles. But I know that assuming them to apply your principles in all circumstances is stupid and even dangerous. Violent extremism typically comes from extremely principled people.
OK. So I wear a kilt or feather bonnet at a Scotland or Wild west themed party. I don’t care either way about Scottish people or plain Indians, know nothing about the history or significance of either costume, except that it’s a well known stereotypical depiction of Indians/Scots, and just think they fit well with the theme and are pretty. I don’t spend a second thinking of the opinion a random or specific Amerindian/Scotsman would have of the costume, and respect or reason never enters the equation, because I’m just thinking of whether or not the party will be fun.
According to some I’m an horrible person for wearing either in these circumstances. According to others, I’m only an horrible person for wearing the feather bonnet. Your opinion?
It’s wrong when your extrapolation is wrong and leads to false conclusions about what makes the situation problematic. You can start from minstrel shows, and after extrapolating, come to the conclusion that you should spend your energy on :
-opposing racism.
-opposing the wearing of kilts at Scotland-themed parties.
-opposing the sale of make-up.
-opposing theatrical shows.
Not all extrapolations are created equal.
What city is the Hitler-coaster in? I wish I could afford a trip to China to see it …
Nonsensical or mistranslated kanji tattoos are an example of ridiculous cultural appropriation. Offensive, no. But stupid? Yes. Perpetrators deserve all the eye rolls they get.
Here, take this ◔_◔ and contribute mine to the next person you see with silly kanji.
I do agree that that is ridiculous (or at least unskilled/mean on the part of the tattooer) cultural appropriation.
Ridiculously exagerated is almost the point of dressing up. If you dress up as a pirate, you don’t search for historically accurate depictions of pirates. You go for the caricatural, archetypal depiction, hook included. And you go for the most flashy : pirate captain rather than random sailor, ninja rather than 16th century Japanese peasant.
So, let’s assume you elect the ridiculously exagerated “Geisha Ninja Samouraï” costume. Which is way more likely than wearing an actually realistic Japanese costume unless you’re a dedicated reenactor. So, you show up clad in black, face half masked, and nobody is too sure whether you’re a ninja or a Touareg. What’s the harm for either Japanese or Touaregs? How reasonable is it for them to be mightily offended that your costume is only a vague caricature of what some of the contemporaries of their great grandfathers were wearing?
If your daughter someday wants a princess costume, will you search until you find a dress that looks historically accurate? If she wants a samouraï costume, will you tell her that there wasn’t any female samouraï, that you can’t see any such costume for kids that isn’t ridiculously exagerated, and that anyway she has no Japanese ancestry, so it’s a no go? You think it would a mighty offense to Japan and Japanese if your kid was dressed up as an unrealistic samouraï girl?
“Shameful display! The only way to wipe the offense and regain your family’s honor is seppuku, little Suzy.”
It’s what an authentic samurai would do in the original cultural context.
Can you give an example of what one might say to be recognized in your eyes “no different than your average white person”?
I quite enjoy a lot of “culturally appropriated” entertainment. The main examples
I would give are the Dragon Quest video games. They depict a Japanese take on a medieval European fantasy setting. Most Japanese RPGs don’t have a Japanese setting. Should Square Enix, Atlus, Nintendo, etc., not sell these games because they are appropriating Western culture? I think this shouldn’t even into the thought process of the Japanese people who made these games.
If anything, I think this cultural appropriation is a good thing. Had it not been for the Japanese appropriating video games as an entertainment form in the 80s, I think their is a good chance video game consoles might have died out in the early 80s, and we wouldn’t even have video games today. I think one culture taking things from another and giving it their own spin is a good thing.
CA is people looking for something to be offended by. BFD. Get over it. No one “owns” culture. You can do you sacred ceremonies independently of whether McDonalds has created a new sandwich based on it.
I gave you several examples of actual cultural appropriation.
I think using something with enormous symbolic importance as a casual decoration is offensive no matter who does it.