Those are absolutely tragic and unacceptable circumstances. Access to free birth control (and education on its use) and abortion on demand, coupled with a strong social safety net would fix the majority of these situations.
However, infanticide, pressure to have abortions, shame and coercion are not required to fix these ills. That is too far and our village cannot kill its humanity trying to save itself.
Nonsense. None of those things decide life based on worthiness. I am ardently anti death penalty and find it immoral, fwiw. I believe in self defense, but that reaction is based on an individual’s actions, not intrinsic worth or perceived drain on society.
The decision of your parents not to abort you, tragic as it was.
These people are the basis of wealth in this country. Without them, your lifespan would probably be halved and you would be forced to rely on subsistence farming to survive. It may seem counter-intuitive, but having “one more child” is a reproductive strategy dependent on economic circumstances.
Lebensunwertes Leben mien fuehrer! Sieg Heil!
Oh and btw, the entire Romani people were lebensunwertes leben. But it’s okay, your opinion is genius and you too will be hailed for it some day.
Ah yes, the other response to someone you don’t agree with. They have to either be evil or crazy. Or both I suppose.
You should DO something. You should quit pretending that it’s all going to work out OK, that allowing children to raise babies is a good idea, that a baby is always better off with it’s mother. Birth control should be available for free and be highly accessible.
Um, no. What are you referring to?
Actually, many of them were like you, completely unable to divorce emotion from the subject. One of them even wished harm on me for not being able to understand why some people think all babies are gifts.
Well, that’s not true, but then you spend so much time making shit up I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that you cannot grasp that thread either.
Ah, OK. So, how many of the folks in that thread do you know don’t want children? Try to be truthful.
Nope. I’d ask you to prove I’ve said that, but you never do. You just make shit up and spread it around as far as you can, to the point that I cannot even ask a question in another forum without you dragging your crap into it.
Well, actually, I have but then that doesn’t fit your narrow view so you ignore it. Also, I’m not really sure Cat Whisperer changed her mind, since she said “My heart isn’t in this debate any longer. I’m going to bow out now.”
Wrong. I have been here for quite a few years. I have disagreed with many people here. I have never called any crazy. Never thought they were crazy. You are batshit crazy. I am not trying to persecute you for your ideas. Get off of that cross loony.
As long as there is pressue to give birth, pressure to abort should certainly be acceptable. Our village does not “kill its humanity” by encouraging people to be responsible. If anything, it reaffirms that we are thinking beings not animals rutting and breeding out of control.
Honey, it’s obvious that I am not crazy, if for no other reason than it isn’t me who is overreacting here. There is nothing crazy for thinking that people should actually be ready to have children before they do, and for thinking that those who get pregnant at really bad times should exercise an option other than automatically deciding to keep the baby.
Actually, what is crazy is making that sort of a decision while under the influence of hormones! :smack:
That’s what all the crazy people say. 
How can somebody who doesn’t work take a vacation?
You’ve told us all that you’re on some kind of government-funded disability. As you heap invective on the heads of anyone who gets that evil government money, even temporarily…
Unfortunately, there is no other time to make the decision.
Oddly (and I say this as both a parent and an adoptive one at that), I think that ZPG and curlcoat do have a position to come from here. In the United States, especially, abortion is taught to many young people as being a non-option. Also, we have shows like ‘16 and pregnant’ making stars of teenagers who have made some pretty bad choices.
However, while children are financially expensive, that is not the thing that makes for the bad parents we see out there. It is normally the point of view of the parent that makes for disbehaving and underperforming children.
So, here’s my proposal. We should have a service that consels every (and I mean every) pregnant woman (or couple should she choose the partner to participate) that puts out all three options (abortion, adoption and keeping the child) and shows them the financial, personal and societal impact of each. Regardless of what option is chosen, they should receive some kind of aid.
(I am thinking in the case of abortion, it is paid for. In the case of adoption, health services are provided, perhaps housing. In the case of keeping it, they should get conselling and help with problems not cash.)
Ah, OK. So, how many of the folks in that thread do you know *do *want or have children? Try to be truthful. It’s your claim, back it up. Remember that you said it was the ‘vast majority’, so I expect to see exact numbers, since you seem so sure.
It’s extremely funny to me that you accuse me of both making shit up and ‘dragging crap’ into another forum, since both those things are actually done by you. Feeling a little sensitive perhaps? Are you ever, ever going to acknowledge that I almost always quote you and prove that you’ve said things, or are you going to keep pretending that I never do that? Let’s try this:
I look forward to you snivelling about how I took that out of context, or dared to not quote your entire giant post, or how generally unfair and terrible I am. I also look forward to you explaining how ‘not allowed to keep the baby’ is somehow not the same as ‘forced abortion or adoption’. How the hell are those different in your tiny, addled mind?
:rolleyes: It was you who brought up some imagined grievance with me in a totally unrelated thread, not me. And it was you who wouldn’t let it go - I refused to rise to your bait. And it was you who got (rightfully) smacked down for it by others in that thread. And yet, somehow it was also you who tried to claim the high ground after such excessively childish behaviour.
Hoo boy, this is opening a can of worms. **curlcoat **is suckling the government teat big time, but it’s *different *you see, because she deserves it and all those other filthy poor people don’t. She thinks that because she paid into social security while she was working, she can take out as much as she wants. She also thinks that nobody else should take money because clearly they are just going to waste it and never make anything of themselves. Unlike her, who spends the government money (that she doesn’t even need) on important things like dog shows and pure bottled hatred.
I think this sounds reasonable. Despite what curlie and ZPG are reading into things, I really don’t think anyone in that thread was suggesting that every single pregnant person should keep their baby. In fact, this board has typically been very supportive of abortion rights. But once someone has made an informed decision, whatever it is, it should no longer be up for debate. They seem to want to ‘counsel’ women in the same way those pro-life crisis pregnancy centres do - there’s only one right answer, and you better reach it, or they’ll keep ‘counselling’ you until you do.
You do not want to start ZPG on the adoption thing. Look up old threads. Or just ram your head into a wall. Repeatedly.
Ironically this thread is showing me an ad right now aimed at overturning Roe v. Wade.
Sure there is - you decide before you get pregnant when and how many kids you want.
Yup, those are other good examples of celebrating bad decisions.
Sounds great, and I think if the father has been identified, he should be there too. I just got in from trying to garden and gave up when the routine arguments started up in the street next door. Those men are not happy over there - I wonder if they would have brought their pregnant girlfriends home to mom and dad if they’d known what they were getting into?
I’m not going to go back to see where you plucked vast majority from, but as for parents in this thread, that’s easy - those who have identified themselves as such.
I dragged once, and it was on topic. I’ve never made anything up. You do both every time you post.
Oh wow I should bookmark this page, you actually attempted to “prove” something you, well I’ll be nice and say misinterpreted. Now, to the quote - you said women which I didn’t take to mean teens. I do believe that any girl under 18 who is still being supported by her parents should not have the option by herself to keep a baby. I think it is extremely unfair to the parents to require that they take on the financial and emotional toll of supporting yet another person, all because of the selfish decision of an immature person. I don’t think they should be able to force an abortion on the teen, but if the parents don’t want to/can’t raise another child they should be able to decide it goes for adoption.
Regarding the rest, I believe I’ve already posted that I am talking about the laws we already have in place. Or are you saying that you believe that women who have children they can’t support or have abused prior children or are on drugs should be allowed to make more children suffer?
You can’t accept that there are multiple ways to be responsible?
Pressure to give birth is equally wrong. Two wrongs don’t make a right y’know.
Good god, you are so incredibly stupid, you know that? It was your own post, dimwit:
But never mind that, since it’s clear you have no intention of providing evidence to support the idea that we’re all defensive parents rather than, say, ordinary sane people.
You dragged a petty grievance about crying babies into a thread about loud motorcycles. I’d really like to know how that is on topic. I realize that for you every single topic in the world boils down to ‘babies are evil, I’m old and bitter, yay for puppies!’, but the reaction of others in that thread should have told you it was wildly, bizarrely off topic. But I forgot that when you lie and whine and moan and insult, it’s okay, but when anyone else does it, it’s terrible.
Okay, so you are again wriggling away from what you actually said and trying to move the goalposts. Teens *are *women, and if they’re pregnant women you want to be able to decide what happens to them. That is ‘forcing either abortion or adoption on pregnant women’, which is what I said, which is what you denied. You don’t want people informed about their choices, you just want to make sure they make the *right *choices, and the right choice is always the choice curlcoat would make. That’s not pro-choice, and it’s no more moral than forcing all pregnant women to give birth.
Perhaps you could explain this:
We’re always under the influence of hormones. Hell, insulin is a hormone. (Never make a decision hungry. Or after a full meal.) Hormones are not the issue here. We need to stop acting like they are.
You know what happens when women, especially young women, go on TV and talk about having had an abortion? Rape threats. Death threats. Threats to burn down their family home and kill their parents and siblings. Threats to bomb their schools. Katie Stack had to move twice to get away from people who decided that her talking about having an abortion on another of MTV’s shows about pregnant young people meant that they should stalk and threaten her.
We ignore this at our peril. Being poor does not make a person a bad parent or more likely to be a bad parent. Full stop.
And here’s where you lose me. This is a particularly obnoxious form of arrogance. Every woman should be required to undergo counseling? Really? No woman, anywhere, is capable of making a rational decision about a pregnancy within the confines of her own family and trusted circle, the people who actually know her and the circumstances of her life?
Absolutely, positively no fucking way. That is nothing but patriarchal, oppressive, presumptive bullshit.