'cuse me while I wallow in self pity

[Mouse_Maven]

@brendon_small

I’ve heard of party schools, there is one nearby. It was ranked by playboy at one point as one of the top 5 in the country (or top ten, I forget). Of course, this is because of their massive Halloween gathering, and of course, I’m refferring to OU-Athens. A friend of mine is a bio major there, and she doesn’t exactly have med school dreams, but pretty much the only subject she enjoys is bio, so she picked it for her major. The good news is if you have such a short time left to be in school, maybe you could get done in 3 quarters (or equal semesters - ugh, we’re changing over next fall so I get half a year of em at least) that way you would have your BS.

Is there any way possible that Rob become a full-time student that he could get a student visa to stay here? That way he could stay in Colorado and look for another research postion and get a degree at the same time? or am I full of wishful thinking?\

Brendon

For the moment, the University of on the semester system. I’m a (full time course load) semester or two away from the BS - depending on class availablity, etc. Going to school for a year and getting it all over with has crossed my mind. Its very intimadating. I’m taking one class this term and it feels like it has consumed my life. Three or four classes are unimaginable. (Would I have any time for sleep, hiking, etc.?)

Rob the Aussie mentioned finding work with another researcher. He has no academic ambitions. We once talked about it and he said, “I could have gone to university, but I wanted to learn something.” (Imagine Paul “Crocodile Dundee” Hogan saying it. ) He’s always encouraged me in to go to school; said it would “make things easier.” Of course, Rob has been in research a looooong time and there are many papers were he is listed as an author. Including this one. Which I love to tease him about.

[The_Blue-Sighted_Shadow]

Mouse_Maven, I know it’s scary, but if you go back full-time, it will be a lot easier, since you will be able to focus on class. If you only have a semester or maybe a year, go for it! I do understand your qualms about being supported by hubby, since I refuse to ask for help unless I’m in imminent danger to life or limb or, you know, bleeding to death. Even then I wait to make sure. Workwise, I’m sure you’d be a valuable resource as a tutor, for example, since you already have real world experience. You’d be surprised at how fast a semester or even a year can fly by when you are doing something that you love (assuming the classes you have left are interesting, of course), but if you only have boring classes left, all the more reason to take the time to slog through. IME, someone who is willing to work is a real rarity, in any industry anywhere. That piece of paper can get you in the door, but it’s your work ethic (or the lack thereof) that makes your reputation. I’m assuming that research is reputation based, and that after a while, people “know” what your work is like, published or not. FWIW, I work in an industry that primarily hires young kids right out of college, and it takes at least 5 years to beat all that useless crap out of them, so they can be productive, and generally another couple of years to actually be productive. It doesn’t take nearly as long with college hires who had actual work experience before or during college. Those Stepford students are the ones that need to be smacked the most and the hardest and often don’t last very long.

[Vlad_Igor]

@Mouse_Maven

I have this fear of not finding a job after I get a BS. (Years of therapy and I still can’t shake my anti-intellectualism. Father has a Phd. Mother has 3 master degrees. Both chronically unemployed. Ex-spouse had a BS and couldn’t get a job. The sensible part of me knows that I’m not as picky as they were. I’ll do anything -within reason - to pay the bills. But I have this deep fear of BS=no job.)

BS MT, age 30. 7 years of clinical lab work as a medical technologist, the last 5.5 years in research. First author one one article in 1999, re-writing one for the TDM journal where I’m the first author. My name is on the author list of perhaps five other papers. It can be done, but it requires trust in yourself and trust in your spouse. Your willingness to do any job will open more opportunities than you think. The game in research is played by learning new things and getting your name on papers. More skills will open more doors for you.

Vlad/Igor, BS MT(ASCP), to be MS, MT(ASCP) in about 2 years.

[Mouse_Maven]

@Jahdra

I work in an industry that primarily hires young kids right out of college, and it takes at least 5 years to beat all that useless crap out of them, so they can be productive, and generally another couple of years to actually be productive.

Nice to know I’m not the only one who has to do this. If I had a dollar for every student worker I’ve had to monitor so they would get some work done, I wouldn’t have to worry about tuition costs. (There are some wonderful students out there. I have worked with them as well and it reminds me of why I feel in love with research. A couple of them are now friends and we stay in touch.)

Thanks for the votes of confidence Jahdra and Vlad/Igor!

[monstro]

@Mouse_Maven

A non-traditional biology undergraduate student with no med school aspirations is a very rare - I’m the only one so far.

I wasn’t “non-traditional” but I was a bio major who didn’t want to go to med school. We’re a minority, but we’re around.

There’s no reason that you will not be able to get a technician job after you get a BS. Technician jobs, at least down here, are plentiful, and you typically have to have a degree. Plus, with a BS you become qualified for managerial-type jobs. The last lab manager in my lab had only a BS. If you’ve been published or have data management skills, you’re a PI’s dream because he can make you do grunt work as well as the fun glamorous stuff. Don’t think of this as a bad thing. Think of this as an opportunity to shine somewhere else.

As for the “Stepford students”, it’s easy to tease them, but remember they’re individuals too, with their own insecurities and fears. Most of them are NOT going to med school, even though they may think they are.

[August_West]

@Mouse_Maven

A non-traditional biology undergraduate student with no med school aspirations is a very rare - I’m the only one so far.

I are one of these rare creatures, and at age 33 I still have 2 more years to go!

I also agree that you should finish the BS. Firstly, it is always a good feeling to accomplish something just so it doesn’t hang over you. Second, having the BS isn’t going to make you less employable, if anything it increases your options.

Keep at it and good luck!

[brendon_small]

@monstro

As for the “Stepford students”, it’s easy to tease them, but remember they’re individuals too, with their own insecurities and fears. Most of them are NOT going to med school, even though they may think they are.

I don’t always mean to tease them, but maybe just to relate their behavior to this board for…umm…future study! yeah! that’s it.

no, actually, I am awful harsh on the stereotype Stepford, but I do know a few that I get along with very well. Usually, they are the one’s often placed into this stereotype but aren’t actually the same. I have noticed that often they also think that they are not going to med school either, but usually they won’t admit it…

Brendon

[Cat_Whisperer]

I just wanted to address your concerns about relying on your hubby. I am a very independent person, too (just ask my husband - he’ll tell you all the stories), but I’ve learned something about being married - it’s just as important to let your partner help you as it is to help them. Husbands like to feel needed (like we all do). It was a struggle for me, but I’m learning to lean on my husband more than is my natural inclination, and it has improved our relationship.

And mature students rock. The only problem sometimes is the immature instructors that feel threatened by mature students who aren’t willing to sit down and shut up and pretend they don’t know anything in a forum that should be encouraging discussion (I’ve only experienced that once or twice, though).

[Mouse_Maven]

More biology students with no desire for the torment of medical school? I’ll have to withdraw my petition for endangered species status.

Good luck with your classes August West. I’ll be cheering for you.

@monstro

There’s no reason that you will not be able to get a technician job after you get a BS. Technician jobs, at least down here, are plentiful, and you typically have to have a degree. Plus, with a BS you become qualified for managerial-type jobs. The last lab manager in my lab had only a BS. If you’ve been published or have data management skills, you’re a PI’s dream because he can make you do grunt work as well as the fun glamorous stuff. Don’t think of this as a bad thing. Think of this as an opportunity to shine somewhere else.

As for the “Stepford students”, it’s easy to tease them, but remember they’re individuals too, with their own insecurities and fears. Most of them are NOT going to med school, even though they may think they are.

One of the reasons I agonize about getting my degree is because I have been working as a research tech for four years now with the degree. I try to remember the “dream job” I couldn’t get because the univeristy’s policy was if the ad listed a BS as a job requirement, then the canidate must have a degree.

You’re right, the Stepfords are people with their own complicated lives. Since my academic career has been a struggle, I envy these students. They’re young, they seem to have the social support and financial means to breeze through college. From my interactions with them, I feel like they don’t (or can’t) appreciate what they have. Jelousy is a dangerous emotion. I try to keep it in check.

@featherlou

The only problem sometimes is the immature instructors that feel threatened by mature students who aren’t willing to sit down and shut up and pretend they don’t know anything in a forum that should be encouraging discussion (I’ve only experienced that once or twice, though).

I have run into this as well! Once I told a prof, “I’m in my late twenties. I’ve been working in research for several years. I’m not some little 18-year-old who’s never seen a phd before!” Thanks for saying that mature students rocks! (I hope you’re not talking about fossils. . .)

[Cat_Whisperer]

@Mouse_Maven

<snip>You’re right, the Stepfords are people with their own complicated lives. Since my academic career has been a struggle, I envy these students. They’re young, they seem to have the social support and financial means to breeze through college. From my interactions with them, I feel like they don’t (or can’t) appreciate what they have. Jelousy is a dangerous emotion. I try to keep it in check.
<snip>

It sure is; I try, too (with various levels of success). Just think of all the character you’ve built over the years, with all your hardships and setbacks.

[ThisSpaceForRent]

@Mouse_Maven

Off to find chocolate and cat to pet . . .

**MousMaven
** i do not know you well but…ummm if I may be so bold, Get the Fucking “stupid” piece of paper…I have too many credits to have no formal degree…(137 credits from 4 different institutions…) :eek:

sending you a hug (don’t get mad Mouse Spouse)…and a CyberBox of chocolate and kittys.

all WILL be well now…

tsfr

[AuntiePam]

NPR did a show a couple weeks back about on-line degrees – more pros than cons, especially if you do your homework and make sure yours is properly accredited. So that’s something to think about, especially if you’d feel better working while taking classes. Phoenix University was highly praised.

Addressing one of your other concerns, one of their interviewees was a professor who raved about older students. She said instructors love them and they do very well.

[mischievous]

I seem to remember that the UC Health Sciences Center is expanding, and has been getting some new faculty that work in mice. If so, a experienced and dedicated mouse tech is worth her weight in gold. Check it out.

And yes, I also remember the extreme annoyance of dealing with the pre-med crowd when trying to get my biology major. It’s not that their goals aren’t worthwhile, it’s that medical school admissions are so damn competitive that the pre-meds have to be focused on making every single test an A+. Those of us that were in it for more academic reasons just wanted to learn cool stuff - who cares if it’s on the exam?

mischievous

[Mouse_Maven]

@mischievous

I seem to remember that the UC Health Sciences Center is expanding, and has been getting some new faculty that work in mice. If so, a experienced and dedicated mouse tech is worth her weight in gold. Check it out.

sigh I work for the UC Health Sciences Center. Animal work is not highly valued. One of the reasons I have grown to loath Stepford Students is that some of them think they’re “better” than me. I muck about in urine, feces, blood and guts - give them the processed cells for experiments. Other than that, I’m subhuman. :mad:

I got tried of this and moved to a lab where I feel respected. If things go south (or North to Canada in this case) I don’t know if I can find another researcher that sees value in my work.

[Vlad_Igor]

Experience goes a long way. I can include in my list of skillZ:

-clinical chemistry, hematology, body fluid analysis, coagulation analysis, toxicology

-Chromatography:
TLC
HPLC
Affinity
size exclusion

-Cell culture

-PCR/RFLP/pharmacogenetic testing

-Immunochemistry
ELISA/ELISA design from just an antibody/antigen pair
Automated

Soon to be added: rtPCR, SELDI mass spec, Western blots

I have not done much on my own, in fact nothing before a paper I’m rewriting that I submitted in June. But, I have skills and experience that would be of great value to a PI. I feel confident that I would not have a hard time finding a job if I were to look for one, based on my experience and skills alone. Educational level is really only looked at for pay scale and general classification (and qualification) of job types; what you can do and are willing to learn are far more important for someone who needs to generate data for the next grant or grant renewal.

Granted you can’t do PhD or advanced MS level work, however I think you have learned more than you are giving yourself credit. My reason for going for an MS in Biochemistry came from the realization that I was training PhDs in some lab techniques and they were asking me for advice on the dynamics of analytical techniques I was very familiar with. What I’m doing now is backfilling my experience with background book knowledge. I’m able to have much deeper discussions about techniques and strategies as a result, and it is very gratifying to have that kind of respect from the PIs and post-docs.

Bench experience and sweat equity do count for something, perhaps half of the value of a lab tech, with formal education being the other half. Plus, if you go into an interview all mealy mouthed about how you don’t have a degree, they’re not going to be interested. Take an honest inventory of what you can do, and present that with confidence to someone who needs your skills, and you’ll have a much better chance at a job. At this point, getting your BS will not only show a level of knowledge, it will also show them that you set a goal and you acheive it, without quitting. This is of great comfort to someone who has a grant to worry about, or needs data for a grant application.

Vlad/Igor

[Mouse_Maven]

@Vlad/Igor

Experience goes a long way. I can include in my list of skillZ:

-clinical chemistry, hematology, body fluid analysis, coagulation analysis, toxicology

-Chromatography:
TLC
HPLC
Affinity
size exclusion

-Cell culture

-PCR/RFLP/pharmacogenetic testing

-Immunochemistry
ELISA/ELISA design from just an antibody/antigen pair
Automated

Soon to be added: rtPCR, SELDI mass spec, Western blots

I have not done much on my own, in fact nothing before a paper I’m rewriting that I submitted in June. But, I have skills and experience that would be of great value to a PI. I feel confident that I would not have a hard time finding a job if I were to look for one, based on my experience and skills alone. Educational level is really only looked at for pay scale and general classification (and qualification) of job types; what you can do and are willing to learn are far more important for someone who needs to generate data for the next grant or grant renewal.

Granted you can’t do PhD or advanced MS level work, however I think you have learned more than you are giving yourself credit. My reason for going for an MS in Biochemistry came from the realization that I was training PhDs in some lab techniques and they were asking me for advice on the dynamics of analytical techniques I was very familiar with. What I’m doing now is backfilling my experience with background book knowledge. I’m able to have much deeper discussions about techniques and strategies as a result, and it is very gratifying to have that kind of respect from the PIs and post-docs.

Bench experience and sweat equity do count for something, perhaps half of the value of a lab tech, with formal education being the other half. Plus, if you go into an interview all mealy mouthed about how you don’t have a degree, they’re not going to be interested. Take an honest inventory of what you can do, and present that with confidence to someone who needs your skills, and you’ll have a much better chance at a job. At this point, getting your BS will not only show a level of knowledge, it will also show them that you set a goal and you acheive it, without quitting. This is of great comfort to someone who has a grant to worry about, or needs data for a grant application.

Vlad/Igor

Wow, rtPCR is the hottest thing right now. Its very expensive. Kudoes to you for learning how to do it! (The project I’m working on right now, I have come to believe that PCR stands for Pretty Confusing Results.)

Sounds like you have a lot of great lab-fu! I have been trying to learn various things. Here are the skills I have on my resume:
·Proficient and comfortable handling medium and small animals
·Familiar with mouse colony maintenance, including: weaning pups, determining the sex of animals, blood collection by ocular dislocation and tail bleeding, tail clipping, subcutaneous and inter-peritoneal injections
·Experienced with euthanasia using a carbon dioxide chamber, cervical dislocation and injection of euthanasia solution.
·Trained for non-survival rodent surgery for removing organs and other tissues
·DNA extraction, gel electrophoresis, PCR, flow cytometry, plasmid preparation and tissue culture
·Good communication skills with co-workers, guests and vendors
·Computer literate, comfortable using Microsoft word processing programs, Excel and Power Point

When I started this thread, I was feeling very depressed. For the past year, I have been stuck in a project that is just not working and I’m not getting the suvivial surgery training I hoped for. (The lack of surgery training is on me. I don’t want to harass Rob the Aussie - mouse surgeon master. He’s got piles of work and deadlines to meet. I really, really want to learn from him, but I don’t want to add to his work load.)

I also wonder if my career is a dead end. Right now I’m a Professional Research Assistant/Lab manager. In a few more years, I could apply for a Senior PRA job. That’s it. I’m trying to decide if I’m OK with that. (Another Stepford Student moment, “Yeah. I’ll work as a PRA if I need to re-apply to med school.” Great, my career is someone else’s back up plan. :rolleyes: ) Actually, the PRA holding pattern for med/nursing school is very common. I have seen many people do this. It makes me wonder if there is more I want to do.

[Anne_Neville]

{{{{Mouse_Maven}}}}
{{{{Rob}}}}

[Mouse_Maven]

@Anne Neville

{{{{Mouse_Maven}}}}
{{{{Rob}}}}

Thank you!

I’ll pass your good thoughts on to Rob the Aussie.

(Sorry Dopers. I’m having the job-is-in-jeopardy-turing-30-in-five-months-what-do-I-want-to-do-with-my-career blues. Also, someone put a bottle o’ piss in the food fridge. I must find whoever did this and kill them. Keep your eyes open for a Pit thread. . .)

[mischievous]

@Mouse_Maven

sigh I work for the UC Health Sciences Center. Animal work is not highly valued. One of the reasons I have grown to loath Stepford Students is that some of them think they’re “better” than me. I muck about in urine, feces, blood and guts - give them the processed cells for experiments. Other than that, I’m subhuman. :mad:

Huh, that doesn’t sound good. Would you mind giving me some of the inside gossip on someone I’m thinking of interviewing with (for a post-doctoral position)? If you’re willing to chat, my email is in my profile - I’d rather not talk trash about another researcher on the message board.

mischievous

[Vlad_Igor]

>DNA extraction, gel electrophoresis, PCR, flow cytometry, plasmid preparation and >tissue culture

Those alone would get you into another lab doing something quite different, and put you in a position for learning a lot of other skills, that could lead to something else down the road… Don’t be afraid to take opportunities if/when they come up, and don’t sell yourself short on being able to learn new things.

Vlad/Igor