Interesting, but somewhat depressing news story. Dateline’s series of surprise confrontations with pedophiles may be for naught. Apparently it has become a “fiasco” for all those involved. A few snips:
One of the things I found interesting is that all these stings took place in a matter of days, and were then stretched out for airing. I guess that kills the ‘this guy is so dumb, didn’t he see this on Dateline’ argument. I don’t blame the DA for being upset about this near-vigilante justice, but I would hope he would still at least pursue these cases to try. If not for anything else, I really think this Dateline sting did do a lot to make online predators think twice. The national attention made every one of these men a villain to the nation and showed how easy it could be to get caught. I hope this saved some children.
Man it was hard to figure out which forum to put this in. A MPSIMS since it’s a national news update? An IMHO to find out what your reaction is? A GD to debate whether not prosecuting is ethical? In the end, the last thread regarding the show was in CS. Mods, move if you must.
At the risk of seeming to make an inappropriate metaphor, isn’t this throwing the baby out with the bathwater? The pedophiles who were exposed were legitimate pervs, and they were caught red-handed. It seems wrong, but then IANAL…
One of these I saw was pure entrapment bullshit- the fake 13-year old called the perp a “chicken” three times for trying to back out of their meeting- he said something to the effect of “this is wrong, I don’t know what I was thinking, I’m not coming” and was called a chicken and basically goaded into showing up. He then backed out at the front door, and was arrested anyway.
Don’t get me wrong, all of these guys are scum, but a few are just lonely dudes who want sex and can’t find it with adults. That’s still scummy, but when the fake 13-year old is egging them on and entrapping them, that’s not right either.
Also are you referring to just one city? Becasue they’ve done this in many citites, and many have been prosecuted.
I read a story a few weeks ago about a producer that quit the show because the ‘good guys trapping pervs’ would not give over complete logs of the chats. Then she found out that they were being entrapped, lied to about how old the kids were but hey, it made good television.
I saw that as well- obviously Chris Hansen prefers to dwell on the more sordid parts of the conversation on the show than the parts where his people egg the perps on. More than one perp has made on-air reference to the 13-year old initiating one or more of the e-mail chats, which Hansen ignores.
Media-wise I believe Dateline is being astonishingly irresponsible. By injecting themselves into the arrest and investigation process to that extent they almost by default invalidate the prosecution.
Right now, the paper I run is working with local law enforcement. We uncovered at least some evidence of unlawful activity and we began consulting with the law about it. We know what our job is: it’s news reporting. Law enforcement is someone’s else. When people come to us with stories about how someone robbed them or defrauded them we’ll run the story if we confirm. But the first thing we do is refer them to the cops.
Obnoxious, but certainly not entrapment. Entrapment requires some degree of coercion; calling someone “chicken” is not sufficient. (Unless you are Marty McFly).
I don’t know, friedo. That seems to have been all that the DEA officials did with DeLorean. If it’s illegal for law enforcement to do that, and I think it may well be, and Dateline is doing this as a routine program, I’m not sure that this DA is wrong to state his belief that the evidence is completely tainted. Most of the private citizen byes for procedure that show up in criminal cases seem, to me, to be a result of thinking “This person stumbled into this evidence, and couldn’t be expected to know what the legal requirements might be.” That’s fine for one or two cases.
When we’re talking about a series of several hundred cases - I’m not so sure that the ignorance of proper procedures should count as a legitimate reason to allow what would be tainted evidence or investigations if supplied to the police.
I think so many people are focusing on the fact that the people involved in these cases are scum, and not thinking about the larger issues of due process. Which worries me. It worries me with GITMO, and it worries me with Dateline NBC’s To Catch a Predator. The rule of law is something that protects us all.
I share your concern. I totally agree they’re scum, but they’re scum with rights and if Dateline is going to act like defacto criminal investigators, then they should be bound by the same evidentary rules.
I found a link to a CBS Public Eye blog that discusses this case within the context of journalistic ethics, a context that has largely been ignored. (It’s here, and worth reading.)
What bothers me most about this discussion is the whole notion that, because these men were accused of soliciting sex from minors, they somehow deserve to be strung up and hung from the highest yardarm, or at the very least, deserve the public shaming they got.
But the American justice system doesn’t work that way. First, the accused are presumed innocent until guilt has been proven by a jury, which has heard the relevant evidence. You can argue that the system is flawed, and I’ll agree with you. But it’s the one we have. Second, the evidence presented at trial has to stand up to scrutiny. Chat logs where both participants are anonymous, and which can be edited as easily as any Word document, can’t stand up to that kind of scrutiny. Finally, district attorneys have to consider all sides before deciding to prosecute. If the DA doesn’t think he can make a case, then there’s no reason to throw money and resources at it when there are other cases that should be tried.
I sincerely hope that these men, and the family of the man who took his own life, sue the pants off Perverted Justice and NBC. Due process and the legal system are how we make people whole, and how we exact punishment for misdeeds committed against others. Since PJ and NBC can’t restore their reputations, then at least make them admit in a public forum that they were wrong and to offer compensation to the men for their actions. It’s not perfect, but it’s the best we can do.
I don’t go along with this line of thinking. Vigilante justice is obviously dangerous and wrong, even if it does result in some other benefit to society. And near-vigilante justice is just a step away from the real thing.
I secretly wish one of the perps would beat the hell out of Chris Hansen, just on principle. He clearly gets off on trying to embarrass the people by reading them back their most bizarre sexual fantasies, like a person is automatically scum for having alternative sexual tastes.
Note: Entrapment is the result of Police conduct. Where the person is (1) induced by the Police to commit an illegal act (2)that they otherwise would not have commited.
If a plain clothes cop walks up to a guy on the street and says “Will you sell me a bag of dope” and the guy pulls out the dope and takes the money he has not been entraped. Even if he asks if the guy is a cop.
I agree that it sounds like some of these guys may have been coerced but that will not be considered entrapment unless the coercion or inducement was carried out by the cops or some other agent of law enforcement at the behest of law enforcement.
ETA: depending on the level of involvement by law enforcement in approving these stings I suspect that a good argument could be made that the decoys were agents of law enforcement. If the cops knew about and helped plan these operations and were otherwise involved.
I watched one or two of those shows, and almost feel guilty about it. I was happy to see these people caught, but I felt that the show was pandering to the voyeuristic sensibilities of the TV audience, and I wasn’t proud of myself for giving into it.
