Popularized by people who know no different… people who consider a zygote a human being.
Yep, that would be me! Let them continue to spout their drivel. They are hypocrites until they can show me that they can account for every sperm or egg they have ever released (by their standards, masturbation would be manslaughter), they are strict vegans, and refuse to wear or use animal products of any sort. That’s killing after all. 
Drivel[sup]3[/sup]. “Unless you’re a vegan you can’t protest against murder”? And I’m talking murder as it’s commonly understood, not abortion.
I’l be sure to pass your observation along to these folks …
and these folks …
and these folks …
or these folks (note definition 1)
And, well you get the idea. Google is your friend if you want more links. The terms embryo (and sometimes fetus/fetal ) are often used as “short hand” in general parlance for the developing z/e/f.
I do find it interesting that so many pro choice folks refer to elective abortions on zygotes (or “clumps of cells” or “blood clots” etc…) …when that never happens.
Guess you’ll give those folks a pass, huh?
If you’re talking about murderes, I don’t care what you do. But calling a woman a murderer for having an abortion reeks of hypocracy if you stand idly by while millions of animals are murdered. See the connection here? I also think you’d be a hypocrite if you’re anti-welfare, pro-death penalty, pro-war. A killing is a killing is a killing afterall.
What I’m getting at here is the pro-lifers like to hit the effect of the problem, not the cause. Abortion is NOT the cause. Of course you will have women who use it as birth control, but I’d wager that percentage to be pretty small. Unless you are actively volunteering with childcare, actively trying to make sure EVERY SINGLE WOMAN has healthcare (whether or not she can afford it), and bugging the Bush administration to fund NCLB, then you’re a hypocrite.
No, one can feel that a foetus has the human right to life that a meat animal does not, and I think you know that perfectly well. One can feel that a murderer should go to the chair while a helpless unborn should live. And so on.
I don’t know about “wager”, I think there are some statistics out there. But someone else on this thread has also advanced the fact that, in Sweden at least, assistance to single mothers hasn’t meant a low rate of abortions.
And while I see what you are getting at, I don’t think that I have to be shifting heaven and earth to provide better living conditions for those sectors of the population providing most petty criminals before I can argue that muggers and burglars should be locked up. Does that also make me a hypocrite?
First of all, when did I say “just use birth control”? I merely told you what I would do if I were certain I’d never want kids.
So if a man gets a vasectomy there’s a 0.1% chance of a pregnancy. That means there’s a 99.9% of no pregnancy. If your friends are as certain as you seem to think they are, then he should get snipped and she should get her tubes tied. Period. End of story.
It’s not “pro-life”—it’s pro-birth.
Think about it.
the anti-choice people really do not care about the infant once born–after that placenta (hell, after the water breaks)–you are on your own, baby-literally.
They won’t support DCFS, social programs, ADC, you name it. I have found this true of most strident anti-choice people.
And hence, their position comes clear: they are happy and willing to subjugate half the population of this country.
Women are NOT to have independent decision making capabilities, in fact, once pregnant…a woman must take those pre-natal vitamins, enough B-12, stop smoking, no alcohol, no “rigorous sex”/horseback riding/exercise–she MUST be content to be, not herself, but VESSEL. What is next? Health camps for expectant moms–where all possible teratrogenic exposures are limited, all for the makings of the “ideal” baby? Think how much easier that checking up on those oh, so suspicious miscarriages would be if all the women were detained!
Sounds damned medieval to me.
And I say-why let the men off the hook? Why not have every post pubescent male screened for sperm count, instructed in condom usage and if found to be non-compliant with condoms, force sterilization?
Seems to me that that would take care of most unwanted pregnancies right there.
What? That would be ROBBING the men of a what? A CHOICE or whether or not to have kids? A CHOICE of what to do with their bodies? How shocking.
Funny, that sounds alot like your goal to me. You are indeed robbing women of a CHOICE when you outlaw abortion. You know-WOMEN–those folks walking around, working, contributing to society, giving you head on Satuday noc–those people-who should have just as much CHOICE as you in this world.
Muad admitted to this woman as vessel postulate a few posts back: “I don’t care about your uterus”.
Hmmm–well, I DO. And my uterus is NONE of your business–ever. It is the business of me and my doctor–and my husband–NOT b/c he is male and may impregnate me–but b/c I care deeply for him and share life decisions with him.the decision we made to have an abortion is none of your business, nor does is make us “murderers”. It makes us humans who had to make a difficult decision and did so.
Muad:
I also find your position of “but it’s ok in case the mother’s life is at risk” to be weaselly in the extreme. Talk about your slippery slopes!
What of congenital anomalies, Muad ? Would you force a woman to carry to term a horrifically deformed fetus–afterall, that is Life, and must be Respected.
What about rape? Did God send the Rapist for a reason–some Lesson the woman was to learn and will be revealed thru the carrying and caring for the Child?
And how about incest? Another Lesson for these pesky women who just want to be seen as people in their own right and not as Vessels of Male Seed?
How about it? Why do women pay the price-financially, emotionally, socially for the irresponsibilities of Men?
What of the psychological damage–indeed mental illness–that some women (few, thank God) would suffer d/t carrying an unwanted fetus to term? That’s all to the good, eh? Who cares about her uterus or her mental health? She’s just a woman—it’s the Baby that counts.
This is Life we are talkiing about! And Life is Good and Just and Right.
You people scare the hell out of me.
But you are an animal and animals have lives, with feeling and emtions. And up until that child can live outside of the host body, it is not a human.
So we’re back to “it’s all the woman’s fault” because she is the one who gets pregnant. Can you honestly say that every single sexual act that you’ve ever been a part of was for the inherent desire to produce offspring and not for pleasurable reasons?
Maybe we should fine men for ejaculating; wet dreams, masturbation, the whole shebang. Men need to take more responsibility of their actions, then women wouldn’t get pregnant as much. I realize it takes two to make a pregnancy, but it seems we always get back to the woman. It’s her fault because it’s her body, so she should have to pay the consequences? This line of thought isn’t fair to women. Because of the way we are built, it is always the woman who has to deal with it. Men can run off, not pay for their kid. Women, at minimum, are slaves to their body for 9 months where the father can just go on his merry way. It’s not our fault we are the child-bearers, we can’t help that. We’re just trying to level the playing field here, equality and all that.
Were any of you pro-lifers virgins until you got married? Can you honestly say every single time you’ve had intercourse it was for baby making purposes only?
Isn’t there a term for “making up a point of view, ascribing it to your opponent, and ridiculing the hell out of it”?
Begging the question.
And this is the crux of the whole thing, isn’t it? “I resent the fact that nature has, with crass regard for my dignity as a human being, seen to it that I cannot run away from a pregnancy the way a man can. I therefore demand that the playing field be levelled.” All you’re asserting there is your desire for access to abortion, not your right to it.
“Equality and all that.” Maybe political ideals ought to be shaped to fit biology, and not the other way around. The bed of Procrustes, and all that. If it makes you feel any better, I despise men who run away from their responsibilities.
I snipped some of the obvious crap from your answer, you know, about masturbation and wet dreams. Was I a virgin when I got married? No. Has my every sex act been with the intention of producing a child? No. Did I however engage in sex with the awareness of a possible unintended consequence which I ought to acknowledge? Damn straight.
Love the fetus, hate the child. That’s how they are. They don’t care what happens once the kid is here, just get it here (so it can hopefully be another paying member to their church ).
BTW, thank you for a wonderful post. It seems you and I have the same train of thought here. Women are once again the lower gender. Because of somethign we have no control over, our plumbing. Yeah, I think men should get a vasectomy until they are married, then have it reversed. I get so sick of it always being the woman.
Your post really touched me, thank you again.
Malacandra, what are you doing then if it disgusts you that men run away? Are you volunteering your time? Are you donating money to your state to pay for these children?
Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren’t they? They’ll do anything in favor of the unborn. But once you’re born, you’re on your own.
-George Carlin
hang in there, Pink --time and tide will tell.
the vast majority of Americans support legal access to abortion–that does not mean that they are enamored of the idea or the act. They don’t have to be. I agree with Clinton–ab should be safe, legal and rare --but then I vote to support social programs etc.
Hell, I was pro-choice but always said that MY choice would be to carry all pregancies to term, if I could. In theory, that was great–reality got in the way. If I could go back and do it again–I would make the same decision. I worry for my daughter, that she (if faced with such) will not be able to…
Life happens to people–which is something the anti-choice crowd completely ignores. There is only one algorithm available to them–and it is one that hurts real people. They don’t see it that way. But they also don’t see both sides of the issues, either. Sad.
I wanted to clarify something. When I posted that it is women who pay the price for the irresponsiblities of men, I was referring to rape and incest.
This thread has been hijacked to Cuba and back. Suffice to say that IMO, the protestors have a right to voice their position. IMO, they are doing themselves and their “cause” a grave disservice in the methods that they use.
I’ve read about half the thread. I don’t care to read anymore. I already know in the eyes of many people I’m less important than a clump of tissue.
I just wanted to come in here and say, I’ve had an abortion and it was not traumatic or horrible. It was the right & the only thing to do for me. I decided, with no other outside influence. I was 20 years old. Right now that little clump of tissue would have been 9 years old - I would be saddled with a 9-year old child.
The reasons why I did it are unimportant and will be believed by half the people in the thread and reviled by the other half. There is a thread around here in which I told my story, it’s also on the website “I’m Not Sorry” under the name of “Elenia”. I just wanted to make the point, that sometimes people can get through an abortion without being traumatized for life. Fence-sitters, really look into what an abortion entails. Don’t look at anti-choice sites only. I saw what was left, it did not resemble a baby. I never thought twice.
Women should know they are more important than the fetus they are harboring. Abortion is a necesity and it is desirable as well. Not everyone who gets pregnant needs to be having kids or should be having kids, and I will not change my life around and spawn children to suffer the religious right or the anti-choice people.
There are plenty of unwanted, unfed, hungry, abused, suffering kids in the world already. It’s against my moral beliefs to bring another kid into this world right now. My moral beliefs are as strong as the anti-choice people. If I ever want a kid, I will adopt one of the suffering. I suggest every single anti-choice person do the same, and then perhaps I’ll give credence to your arguments. *Every anti-choice * *person * should adopt a child. Every. Single. One.
Or hell, what if she’s there with a wanted pregnancy because she needs prenatal care?
Lord Ashtar, even today, women have a hard time finding a doctor willing to do surgical sterilization, especially if she’s young and/or hasn’t had children. Ask some of our female Dopers here about their experiences.
I don’t think that the word “vast” means what you think it does
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html
Even out of those who don’t support making abortions illegal…a majority support various kinds of restrictions (parental or spousal notification, waiting periods etc…)
http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm
A lot of the polling data suggests mixed feelings on the topic (for example, more folks identify as “pro life” than “pro choice”…but that doesn’t equate evenly to “making abortion illegal”)
Quite honestly…a lot of the polling is push polling, skewed in both directions. If the questions are phrased in terms of “does a woman have a right”…the results are different than if the question is phrased “does a fetus have a right…”.
Both sides do this…but one of the problems is that there is a bias in reporting. And before you roll your eyes TOO much about charges of bias, the bias has been extensively covered by David Shaw, Pulitzer Prize winning reporter at the Los Angeles Times.
The series predates the web…but it has been outlined here or here . Hell some of the reporters even admit such…
So again…if the debate (and polling questions) are framed as PP wishes…the results are different than if the debate and polling questions are framed more neutral (or as Right to Life folks would like).
“Wonderful post” pronounced “snivel”. Denying you the right to kill every foetus you conceive is not the same as making you “once again the lower gender”. Denying you the right to kill every foetus you conceive is not the same as making state-controlled baby incubators. Also, in most cases you have plenty of control over your plumbing - not how you’re plumbed, but what you do with it.
Very kind of you to draw the line at vasectomy, and not castration. I’m sure we would all willingly volunteer to have surgery performed on us to suit the convenience of another. But think on this: If all men have access to 100% effective contraception and use it, no problem. Ditto for all women. But if the uptake is lower, and you have multiple sex partners over time (as seems to be the norm and unlikely to change soon), you, the woman, can either: make 100% certain for yourself, or trust 100% of your partners. If 90% of women use the effective contraception, down go unwanted pregnancies by 90%. If you trust the man for it, and 90% of men use it, how are the unwanted pregnancies looking then? Still down by 90%? Why not?
I’ll answer that when you tell me the six things that most disgust you about modern society, and demonstrate that you are acting on all of them to the extent you ask of me. Otherwise, “hypocrite” yourself for demanding a standard of me that you don’t hold yourself up to.
I don’t give a shit if “life begins” at conception. Me, I thought life began billions of years ago.
But I guess you mean that a unique life begins at conception. Me, I thought the sperm was alive, the egg was alive, and both were unique.
But I guess you mean that a unique human life begins at conception, by which you mean a life with a unique full set of human DNA. Me, I think that if you kill a person, it’s not a defense that their DNA lives on in their identical twin.
I don’t give a shit about that. It ain’t human life that i want to protect: it’s desires, experience, identity, hopes, dreams. A single-celled organism lacks all of these, and I don’t give a shit about whether it’s killed, whether that single-celled organism is a paramecium or a fertilized egg.
Come talk to me when it has any of desires, experience, identity, hopes, or dreams, and I’ll be interested in protecting it. Until that point, I’ll see your desire to protect it as imminently arbitrary and irrational.
Daniel
Whereupon Daniel endorses infanticide.