Gosh, weren’t you the asshole complaining about straw men? Who’da thunk?
Hint: infants have desires.
Asshole.
Daniel
I believe my friend and her husband have. The fact remains that there is a non-zero risk of pregnancy and that women have gotten pregnant when they have had their tubes tied and their husbands have had vasectomies. The fact remains that one of our own Dopers is in the curious position of being one of the first women to get become pregnant after undergoing the Essure procedure and passing the dye test which indicated her Fallopian tubes were blocked. Apparently, not blocked enough. :rolleyes:
I’m a programmer and the daughter of an engineer. I was trained that if a possibility exists, especially if there are known occurrences of that possibility, however remote, you allow for them. I drive carefully but not timidly, wear a seat belt, and remain aware of my limits and surroundings, thus doing all I can to reduce my risk of being in an auto accident as much as possible. That doesn’t mean I won’t be in one or that it’s not a good idea for me to carry auto insurance even if my state didn’t require it. In my own habits, the only ones I’m at liberty to discuss, I do take precautions and discuss what will happen if I become pregnant with the person involved before doing anything which could result in pregnancy. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible for me to get pregnant.
CJ
Women who have abortions come from all walks of life. You’re not being asked to shift heaven and earth to improve the life of someone who just held up a liquor store.
You want to know how to drastically reduce the number of abortions performed in this country? Fine. I’ll tell you.
Pushing for funding sex ed in schools (detailed, clinical sex ed that will actually teach kids something) would be a wonderful start. Education goes a very long way toward fixing societal ills. Learning about a thing does not mean they’re going to rush right out and do it. Conversely, not learning about something isn’t going to stop them.
Talk to your daughters and sons about sex and the responsibility that goes with it. Be aware that by the age of 15, they are sexual beings, and telling a hormone with feet “NO!” is not going a realistic deterrent. Let them know that their having sex, while not what you want right now, will not result in them getting into trouble or being expelled from the family. Fear is a very big factor in what kids tell their parents. They’ll be much more likely to come to you if they’re not afraid of retribution for something that is, after all, a very natural occurence.
Stop lobbying against counselling being given in women’s clinics. These women deserve to make an informed choice. Who knows? They may choose the adoption route. But unless the nurses there are allowed to give them all their choices and explain their options, how can they do that? They have to make a rushed choice that may not be best for them.
And last, but certainly not least: QUIT SPREADING MISINFORMATION. The fucking posters are lies. The commercials are lies. Start using factual information and quit screaming. No one is going to be willing to listen to you.
Since it’s so obvious…
Please provide the cite that a newborn baby has desires.
(I assume we’re not talking about biological needs for food etc, which of course a fetus needs as well…but something more philosophical like the rest of your list…“experience, identity, hopes, or dreams”)
A carrot needs sunlight, but a carrot does not desire sunlight. A fertilized egg needs nutrition, but a fertilized egg does not desire nutrition. An infant needs food, AND an infant desires food.
I’m not fucking providing you a cite that a newborn baby has desires.
Daniel
How about “identity, hopes and dreams” then?
Regards,
Shodan
Do you not consider self awareness “identity” ?
Comparing the death of an actual child to the spontaneous end of a pregnancy is comparing apples and oranges. Kids don’t usually drop dead for no reason, so investigating their deaths is reasonable. The percentages I keep reading are that about 10% of pregnancies end in the first trimester. My mother had one. My sister had one. They’re the only two in my immediate family who’ve ever been pregnant. If you count unimplanted fertilized eggs, it may be as high as 50%. MOST women will have a miscarriage at some point in their lives. And some 1% of women are chronic miscarriers. So how far do you take an investigation of a couple who, by your definition, keeps losing child after child through no fault of their own? And again, HOW do you determine whether the loss of a pregnancy is through miscarriage or abortion? The most definitive way to tell would be a pelvic exam. I’m seriously asking about practicalities here. How much government interest is too invasive?
You’ve suggested you’d lock up a woman for the duration of her pregnancy to ensure she gives birth. How is imprisonment for a crime not commited not draconian? How is that comparable to punishing people for abusing their children? Do we lock up parents in case they might harm their kids? No, we lock them up AFTER we have evidence that they do so. (And sometimes not even then.)
I find this quite telling. Why does the potential life always trump the actual life, 100% of the time?
But not fully. What happens after the unwanted pregnancy is complete? What, pray tell, happens to all the unwanted babies after they’re out of the women’s uteruses you don’t care about? Where do they go? Where do YOU think they should go? Put them up for adoption? By whom?
It ain’t black and white, no matter how much you want it to be. Even by allowing for people to have abortions for situations where the mother’s life is in danger, you’re introducing your own shades of grey. Medical risks are for every case different. Who decides how much of a risk the woman has to take, before an abortion is allowed? By these suggested laws, it’d be the government. I’d think a libertarian would be disturbed by that idea.
Force. You keep introducing that concept. I only see one side trying to force anything. Nobody is FORCING anyone to have an abortion; it is an elective procedure and in the current religious political climate, is unlikely to be made mandatory. Yet you would FORCE women you’ll never meet to bear children they don’t want, to satisfy your view of what a pregnancy is, even though there is a large number of people who do not agree with that view. It is akin to forcing an entire country to live by the tenets of a certain religion, though a large number do not practice that religion. Why do you argue that this a good thing?
Bravo, Jenaroph
Very well put.
To me, if you are gonna postulate anti-choice–you have to go all the way. The minute you let in “well, if the mother is at risk…or the baby grossly deformed and won’t survive outside the uterus…” you have admitted to shades of gray and have lost your “but it’s Life and must be at all costs” argument.
All of this is really beside the point–I do no share the same moral construct that the anti-choice people do. The difference is that I am not forcing my choices onto them…but they would on me.
What about 'em? I used the word “any” for a reason. If your concern is borne from something other than an incorrect reading of what I wrote, I’m afraid you’ll need to elaborate.
Daniel
Obviously I’m not very knowledgeable in how hard it is to get sterilized, but I would think Siege’s friends (with their genetic problems or whatever it is) would have an easier time than most. I could be wrong.
And upon futher reading of the thread I see that they both have, making this a moot point.
Carry on.
Of course you aren’t. Because you can’t.
Let’s parse this, shall we?
If it will never become self-aware or gain consciousness, it has no right to life.
If I have an abortion, then the z/e/g will never become self-aware or gain consciousness.
Therefore, z/e/gs belonging to people who have abortions have no right to life. Conversely, those beloinging to people that don’t abort or miscarry or otherwise have a mishap do have a right to life.
Whaddya know? Looks like Muad was pro-choice after all.
Ever been around a newborn? Ever seen how much they cry? I’m pretty sure it’s because they desire that they get fed. Maybe it’s because they desire that their diaper gets changed. Perhaps they desire to be held.
Quit being so fucking stupid.
http://learn.vt.edu/courses/1/PSYC_2004_14289_200501/content/_906523_1/Development.pdf
I’m not sure if I’m allowed to cite my lecture notes for the psychology class I’m taking, but if I am (and Blackboard allows off-site links) look at pages 3-5.
You’re “pretty sure.” “Maybe.” “Perhaps.” Fine.
I’m pretty sure that maybe, perhaps, 2+2=5, for sufficiently large values of five.
Quite being so fucking shrill. It’s not my fault you’re confusing an emotional argument with a logical one, and it’s not my fault it’s flawed. Obscenities aren’t backing up your point.
Now, kindly explain to me why a newborn has desires and a fetus does not. And while you’re at it, please provide the definition of “desire” you’re using. Thanks.
robert, looks like Blackboard doesn’t link out. Is that doc available elsewhere?
You must be insane.
I’m not providing you a cite for the bleedin’ obvious, and I’m not going to defend myself any further against charges that I advocate infanticide, because I don’t fucking advocate infanticide.
Look. I understand that your position is that it’s okay to torture animals to death for fun, and you’re justifiably defensive about that. BUt that doesn’t mean it’s okay for you to make up scurrilous lies about my position and ask me to defend them.
Daniel
:shrug: Ok then. Apart from putting it on the record that I’ve made up no lies about your position, scurrilous or otherwise, I’m happy with that. You’ve established that your are arguing from emotion and your cite is “fuck you, I’m right.”
I don’t think you advocate infanticide. Never said you did. I would suggest, however, that you do your views little justice if you cannot back them up with something beyond “it’s bleeding obvious.” Fuck, man, that’s the way Muad’Dib’s operating, and you clearly don’t care much for his angle, right?
Oh, and why is insane to ask for my ignorance to be eradicated? I am unaware that newborns have desires in the sense that I understand the term. I want you to show me, so I can learn. When did that become insanity?