braintree, if the point being debated was whether or not America started the war, then I conceed that indeed we did. In fact I never denied it. We DID start the war. There are many similarities between the situation in Europe circa 1933-1939, and this situation…and there are some very key differences. If you review your history post WWI, you’ll find your weapons inspectors, sanctions and all the rest.
The point I was trying to make (poorly I suppose) was that our European buddies haven’t changed THEIR toon at all. They did and said the same things pre-WWII as they do now (and as they did in the first gulf war). My faith in opinion polls of whatever stripe is pretty low, and my faith in the moral fiber (or lack there of) in our European buddies is even lower. To them, and maybe its understandable, war=bad…no exceptions. The only thing that changed their mind was when Hitler invaded one country too many (or for more recent events, when one too many autrocities showed up on television in the Balkins, embarassing them a bit too much).
Your quote:
As for him shooting rockets at our guys, the funny thing about that is that your reference is the first one I’ve heard of in months (and, as you can tell, I’ve been doing a lot of reading on the subject). Overwhelmingly the pro-war crowd never even mentions them. That includes Bush. So the fact that you mentioned them is interesting but irrelevant since they weren’t prominently used as a justification.
What do I care what the conservative crowd has to say? lol, I’m not a conservative, nor a Republican. I suppose you could put me in the ‘pro-war’ crowd, if you mean by that that I support the decisions made and the steps taken so far. I’m the ultimate devils advocate…an Independant Moderate. I mentioned them because it showed (to my mind at least) a pattern…a pattern of a man and a regime that was pushing, and testing constantly.
You ‘heard’ more than one person cite that? lol, last week I ‘heard’ some talking that the world was flat too. There are also fools out there that think God is a cosmic magician, creating fish and whatnot out of thin air, fosils and DNA evidence asside, and all kinds of strange things. Your point to this anacdotal evidence is? You guys referenced some off the wall, obviously biased, and also unpublished (with no other corroborating facts btw detailing the demographics of the survey) poll done, and wonder about my questioning it? I simply don’t believe that the majority of Americans are such fools as that, and it will take more than one ‘poll’ to convince me of it. Lets see a Fox poll, or MSN…hell, lets see a NY Times poll on the subject for that matter. I’ll reconsider (and be saddened by the stupidity of my fellow citizens if true). Until then, this sounds like the same ole tired scare mongering by the liberal left (and I’m tired of the same ole tired scare mongering by the conservative right btw too).
As to your point about Bush, I think that Saddam COULD of avoided war AND stayed in power if he had the brains of pocket lint. It didn’t HAVE to be a zero summ game for him (die or die as you say). IF he had of conceeded all records (like where all these misplaced tons of chemicals are) and bend over backwards to welcome and facilitate the UN inspectors (You want to talk to our scientists alone? Not a problem!!), toned down the retoric and been a bit humble perhaps, NOT gone out of his way to send money and assistance to the PLO terror goons slaughtering innocent civilians…ya I think he could still be in power in Baghdad. I think he made a serious miscalculation that America would fold to world opinion…and it cost him his
To your questions:
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Was the war good for the Iraqis? I have to say that I’m not so sure. I’ve been to that part of the world, and I dont know how this will turn out. They might be happy to have gotten rid of a tyrant (they will be much happier when WE leave), but they are just as likely to replace him with another one. Hopefully THIS one won’t be such a fool. Over all, I can only hope…
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Do we support our troops? I’ve always supported the men and women of our armed forces. Pro or anti war, I just don’t see how you can’t. THEY didn’t decide…YOUR government did. They are only doing their duty to US guys. If you don’t like that decision YOUR government is making, we are blessed in this country with a self correcting mechnism…its called free elections. Don’t like what they are doing? Get out and vote you lazy bums. 
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Is the war a good idea for us? Definitely the jury is out on this one. I don’t think that its going to be cut and dry either…some good and some bad will definitely accrue to us no matter what. Possibly, its put some other countries (who don’t know us very well…as some of the posters obviously don’t) on notice that it could happen next to THEM. Personally, I’d say we’ve reached the end of our tether with this one both in money and treasure…I don’t think we COULD do another one, not anytime in the future. I also don’t think we SHOULD do another one.
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Special bonus issue: Has the administration legitimately justified what it’s doing? I think this would break down on political lines to be honest. Its rather like argueing religion. It depends on where you stand on the issues. As I said, we had both noble and base reasons for doing what we did…as with ALL decisions made by any government for all time. Clinton didn’t launch a war in Bosnia ONLY because he felt bad about the ethnic cleansing…and Bush didn’t attack Iraq ONLY because he needed to ‘do’ something. If the liberals and conservatives out there would only turn off the retoric and engage their brain, they’d see that there are two sides to all issues…and that rarely (read, once in a blue moon ;)) are things black and white.
One last point on the use of WMD and such. A lot has been made of Saddam not using his WMD on our troops. I have to say that, I for one never thought he would. To me, the political damage he would have suffered (I think he felt he had a chance to win, using the strategy he’d planned out), far outweighed the benifits he would of gotten. When attempting to use Chemical or Biological weapons (I doubt he had any other kind at his disposal) against a modern, well equiped army (such as ours), the effect would be very limited, if at all. It would cause our troops to slow down, and be a royal pain in the arse to them too, but other than that, it would have very little effect. The same with his troops…they’d have to operate at reduced efficience as well. The only really effected people would of been the massive civilian deaths. Remember, that Germany durring WWII had litterally TONS of the stuff (I believe they actually invented a derivitave of the dreaded Sarin gass thats talked about so much), and Hitler was definitely not what one would consider stable…yet they never used the stuff against any of the modern armys against them, even in the final days (they did use it against more unprotected targets but thats too distastful to get into). Saddam is of a similar stripe…he’d use it against the Kurds and Shiite (as he DID…many times), but it would be (well, would of been I suppose) wasted on us. The point of him having them was not would he use them on our armed forces who were protected, but would he use them (or give them to those that would use them) on our civilian population somewhere…and to that all I can say is, if someone will gass his own people (fellow muslims, not that THAT mattered to him), what would stop him from doing that to people he has a grudge against?
Now that I have put everyone to sleep, I shall retire and see what comes of this thread.
-XT
