Wha? Somehow I managed to reply this thread even though I wasn’t reading it at the time. How the hell does that happen?
It’s been my understanding that spouses/lifemates are always implicitly invited. Is that right, or am I wrong?
htns, I think that if someone important enough to be a guest at your wedding has a spouse or life partner that you would know that person’s name, and put it on the invitation. I believe it would be a breach of etiquette to leave such an important person off the invite.
You may do things differently over the other side of the pond, but when it came to our wedding, we specifically didn’t want kids there.
Firstly, it was an ‘adult’ ceremony: lots of drinking and smoking and general carrying on.
Secondly, we didn’t want kids running around shrieking etc. during the service and the speeches. That may be prejudicial, but fuck it, we were paying an absolute fortune for the day, and we wanted it as we wanted it.
But thirdly, and more importantly, we were on a limited budget. A kid’s meal was €20 per head. If we allowed one child, we’d have had to allow them all. Given that there were 100 guests, that might mean an extra 10 or 20 meals - up to an extra €400. So we specified on the invitation that children weren’t welcome.
Half the guests were travelling from Engand to Ireland, so this would mean a huge inconvenience for some of them who were parents. I was sorry that it did, but tough titties. Them’s the rules we set. In the end, one couple didn’t come because of our ruling (as well as other factors), and one couple brought their baby despite our request not to.
Whether Jonathan Chance should have known about the no-kids rule is somewhat debatable. What isn’t debatable, at least in my mind, is the apparent attitude of the groom-to-be in this scenario.
The groom-to-be is asking his friend to be a part of this special day. Fair enough. However, he’s apparently being a snot about JC’s ability to attend. JC obviously has a situation that will make it difficult, at best, to attend the wedding. Rather than being understanding about that, the groom-to-be is apparently taking it for granted that JC would just be willing to drop everything in his life and make herculean efforts to come to the wedding.
If the groom-to-be doesn’t want kids at the wedding, no big deal. However, he should understand that such a restriction could very well prevent folks who are 400 miles away from attending the wedding. Getting huffy about that flies in the face of etiquette. He can’t hide behind etiquette one moment (“You should’ve known the way the invitation was addressed that your child couldn’t come”) and then begrudgingly make “concessions” about child attendance the next.
Sure, JC made a mistake in interpreting the invitation. But if the groom-to-be is as close a pal as he seems to feel he is, he should understand if the Chances can’t make the trip.
I agree with this. While the bride and groom may have a no kids rule for a very good reason (perhaps there are bratty cousns somewhere and they don’t want to invite them) they do also need to realize that for out-of-town guests, this may pose a problem. If it were me, I would have arranged a local babysitter for the out-of-towners. But then again, we DID invite kids to our wedding, so what do I know?
And if the invitation didn’t say 'To The Chance Family" or “To Mr and Mrs Chance and Family,” then Baby Kate was not invited, but it is very confusing. In fact, we addressed our invites this way and people still were wondering if they could bring their kids.
You are technically wrong. Only those who are named on the invites are welcome to attend. However, it is extremely bad form to invite someone who is married or engaged and not invite their spouse/fiance(e). The onus is on the To Be Weds to address their invites properly.
If you know a friend has a spouse or lifemate, it would be rude to leave their name off the invitation.
IMHO it’s not a good idea to assume that any invitation implicitly includes someone else, especially if the reception is going to be at a restaurant or hall where seating is a factor. When my sister got married, all the single people invited were told that, owing to budgetary constraints, those people without serious SO’s were expected to come solo. Nearly everyone understood, but one guy decided to bring a guest anyway and there was a bit of embarrassment when he discovered that the seating plans were not designed to accommodate her.
Indeed, I’m a groomsman at a friends wedding and recently received the invitation to the rehearsal dinner. I threw out the envelope (not the invite itself) and forgot to note for certain whether my fiance’s name was on it as well. Even though I was 99% sure she was invited, I asked. I figured, look a bit dumb now rather than looking VERY dumb the night of the rehearsal.
And getting all bent out of shape because a stressed-out friend didn’t mask their annoyance to save his feelings is a childish response and a great way to lose a good friend.
Huh? Of course he can make concessions in spite of his friend having been the one who was wrong about kids being included. That just doesn’t make any sense.
Look, Jonathan misread the invitation. That onus is on him. And I’m not saying Jonathan wasn’t polite about it, but he also didn’t tell us his side of the exchange, only charactarizing it as him (Jonathan) being “cheesed off” and them (he and the groom) “go[ing] back and forth for the last few days” about it, until the groom finally, huffingly says, “FINE, bring the kid.” He was probably exasperated at that point, at having to constantly defend his position and decision. If someone annoyed me “back and forth” over something that I’d already expressed quite clearly, I’m not so sure I wouldn’t have snapped at them, too.
The bottom line is this – how important is this friendship and what actions will prolong it or kill it? Is it worth losing a good friend because of a miscommunication on your part and a snippy response on his? In my opinion, no. That’s not the way real friends behave. To err is human, to forgive divine.
I don’t see why it would be such a big deal to leave the kid at home for a day with a sitter. Why would having to get a sitter be so bad that you would not attend the wedding? Can’t your 4-year-old survive for 24 hours without you? When I was growing up, we were left with a sitter all the time when our parents went to adults-only events. We got to go to family weddings, but my parents never took us to their friends’ weddings. Why would you want to anyway? Can’t you go 24 hours without your kid?
Also, why do you think the groom was being huffy? Afterall, he made an exception for you, saying “if having Kate there is the only way we’ll attend then she can come.” This was very nice of him, it means you being there means so much to him that he would be willing to make an exception.
Don’t let this ruin the friendship, which is what will happen if you don’t go. They have all the right in the world to not include children, and you should have known this.
Jonathan, you are being patronized by the groom.
But here is the deal, you can drop Baby Kate off here. We have a fence around our yard and I will check up on her from time to time. I won’t ask for much in return, just a couple cartons of wine coolers if its gonna be a hot day.
I don’t think parents should ever assume that their children are included on invitations, wedding or otherwise, if they’re not mentioned specifically. If you want to bring your child and aren’t certain, ASK. And please don’t get upset when they’re not included. It’s most likely not because they don’t like kids, it’s just that some folks like to have events every once in a while where there are no worries about watching the little ones. It’s OK to enjoy purely adult company sometimes and it’s not a personal slam against you or your child.
I refer you all to Etiquette Hell and its message board for all your etiquette needs.
Jonathan Chance was in the wrong for assuming that Baby Kate was invited. As many have said, only the names on the invite are guests-to-be. If there was no “and family”, that means children not included. Of course mix-ups do happen, as there was one wedding my parents were invited to- only their names- but they found out at the wedding that us kids were expected too. But general rule is only those named are invited.
The bride and groom to be can put the request for no children on the invite but it is considered rather tacky to do so. The names on the invite should suffice. Extra guests mean extra stress and extra money usually, so it’s understandable that the groom/friend was a bit huffy. The bride and groom are under no obligation to provide child care for those parents who simply can’t find a sitter for their kids but it is nice to do. It is extra money they might not have though. They should also understand that some parents may not be able to make it because of the circumstance, and that is ok too.
Longtime SOs, fiances, and spouses should be included on the invite. I received a wedding invite last year and I was rather hurt that I was the only one named, even though I was currently living with my boyfriend of 2 1/2 years at the time. I couldn’t attend due to us only having on car at the time, the 3 hour drive there, and him needing it for work, but him not being invited did play a tiny part of me not going.
I think you’re wrong here. In my opinion, the friend should have reminded Jonathan Chance about the no-kids policy, and politely expressed regret when/if JC told him that meant he couldn’t come to the wedding. It sounds to me like the friend is really pushing to get JC to come to the wedding. The thing is, when you put restrictions on who can/can’t attend the wedding, you start throwing variables into the equation that can’t be ignored. The friend should be understanding about JC’s inability to come, given the no-kids rule.
Let’s assume, though, that JC and his family (including the child) go to the wedding. What’s gonna happen? Other couples who arranged for sitters or who had some hassle getting childcare will now see the Chance family, including child, attending the wedding. This can be a huge problem, depending on the people involved, and it’s exactly the sort of problem the friend should have avoided in the first place.
That’s what I mean about the friend using the etiquette defense about the way the invitation is written, when he’s gonna turn right around and throw etiquette out the window. And, if he IS pressuring JC to attend the wedding despite his initial restriction, that’s just wrong.
Okay, I’m thoroughly confused now.
Let’s say that I want to have a wedding where there are no children (13 and under). How would I word the invitation to make it clear that children are not invited?
[ol]
[li]Just write the names of the parents on the invites.[/li][li]Have “no children 13 and under” (or something of the sort) printed on the invite.[/li][li]Call every guest with children and make it clear to them that their little darlings aren’t welcome.[/li][/ol]
Any other suggestions? Jonathan, how would you have preferred to be addressed about this?
And how do you know he didn’t? Jonathan states quite clearly in his OP that he was “cheesed off” and that he and the groom went “back and forth” over this issue for several days. It sounds to me like the friend tried the polite route and finally just gave in to undue (and IMO, unacceptable) pressure. Once Jonathan got the clarification he was seeking in the initial phone call, it was his responsibility to accept the situation as it was offered (no kids!). But no, he had to keep pushing and pushing until he got his way, then whined about the groom relenting in a “huffy” tone.
Again, how do you know he wasn’t? You’re making a lot of suppositions without any real evidence to back them up. It’s just as likely that the groom completely understood the variables, stood his ground and kept getting hammered about Jonathan wanting to bring his kid along.
And that’s exactly the sort of problem the groom tried to avoid in the first place, but Jonathan just wouldn’t accept it. The fact that other people might get in a snit about it is a legitimate concern. However, the groom ultimately made the call that it was more important to him to have Jonathan there with kid and possibly cheese some other people off, than it was not to have him there at all. It’s his wedding and therefore his call to make.
And all of this just further illustrates why it’s Jonathan’s repsonsibility, if he really wants to attend this wedding, to leave his child at home with a sitter and stop pestering the groom about it. It can’t possibly be that hard to find someone responsible to take care of his child. As others have said in this thread about their parents, my parents took weekends away from time to time and left us with a sitter and we loved it. And I did weekend/overnight babysitting for people all through college, myself. It should not be that big of a deal.
You raise valid points, Shayna. I guess our interpretations differ on who is pushing for the Chances to attend the wedding. Since the only person who can answer that is JC, I’ll reserve judgement until he can clarify.
I wanted to post, interesting thread, since I’m getting married in a couple of months and our wedding is a firm “no kids”.
We did this for a variety of reasons, some of which we know are destined to insult and offend some of our thinner-skinned guests.
–Evening wedding, late reception. We’d prefer to have an adult, formal, atmosphere. Kids would be bored silly and wouldn’t enjoy the event.
–Formal venue, the place is an old mansion filled with antiques and breakables. We, the bride and groom, have to pay to clean that velvet drapery that your little Katzenjammer Kids smeared grape jam on.
–Alcohol, drunk and festive adults, and kids do not mix. Ever. Unless you want your precocious little Sally to overhear Uncle Walt’s stories about picking up Thai hookers during shore leave during the Korean War.
–Babies squealing during the vows and ceremony are never cute, and never forgotten. I don’t care how sweet and nice the sympathetic smiles from the other guests and officiant are, behind that smile are laser beams of extreme irritation and disgust. The bride will never forgive you.
–We know that, somehow through your child’s life, you have managed to slip out to a movie, show, or shopping without the rugrats in tow and have found a sitter or friend. Our invites are giving you 4 months warning, don’t you dare imply that we are inconveniencing you by asking you to leave the kids behind.
–Lastly, we are the bride and groom, and it is our own damn decision. If we ask you to come without kids, then do so or politely decline the invitation.
Thanks, Sauron. I went through this very thing with my cousins at our wedding, so I know how hard it is to stand firm with people you love and really want to be there with you, in the face of their begging and pleading with you. As you pointed out, it really puts the bride and groom in an untenable position with their other guests if one person is allowed to bring a child and no one else is. That’s why I think it’s unfair for Jonathan to have put him in that position in the first place. I went “back and forth” with both my aunt and my cousin, every phone call initiated by them, begging me to let my cousin bring her baby (her older kids, ages 9 & 11, were invited). I’ll keep the story short except to say that I refused to back down and whaddaya know, they found a sitter, came and had a much better time not having to hand off the baby back and forth between them so they could all relax and dance and have a great time.
I hope that Jonathan does the same, and loses the attitude towards his friend, who shouldn’t have been put on the spot like that to begin with. It sounds to me like their friendship means enough to both of them not to damage it because of what is really nothing more than a misunderstanding, and the groom has made an effort to show that by (even begrudgingly) allowing them to bring their child. I think they need to show similar respect and not do so, anyway.