I would agree with the things that people have said before in this thread. No means no, end of chat, no arguments.
I do think that if two people go out and get blind drunk, and the woman wakes up the next morning and screams rape cause she don’t like the look of the the guy in the other side of the bed then that is wrong too. If both parties are equally drunk/stoned whatever, they are equally responible.
A simple thing would be to ask “what would you like?” this is asking if the other person wants to go ahead, and if there is anything they want, ie kissing, cuddling, sex, what position etc. PEople have argued before that asking dispells the “mood” or the “feelings”, but if you ask in the right way, it can actually add to it and will go a long way to avoid getting into bad situations.
Admittedly, I am not very experienced in this area and I might have a lot to learn, but that is my take on it and how I behave.
Of course its wrong, but doing what you described would be stupid at best, and downright dangerous. It is wrong to steal, yet if I walk around shouting that I am drunk and have $500 dollars in my pocket, am I increasing my chances of being robbed? I think so. Take precautions to protect yourself. Never rely on someone else to do it for you.
Just so I don’t get my head bitten off let me make it quite clear from the outset that I don’t condone rape under any circumstances.
Having said that I have to comment that no one seems to have made even passing reference to the concept of a crime-of-passion on the rapist’s part. Is there no such concept under American law?
To draw an analogy, if I start arguing with another man and it turns personal, and then gets loud, we get into a pushing match and I throw a punch, I can’t then suddenly say "NO, I don’t want to fight with you and have no intention of continuing this’. Under local law the other bloke can beat the snot out of me and get away with it either scott free or very lightly even if he openly acknowledges that he realised I was not a threat. It’s certainly a very different kettle of fish to normal unprovoked assault. Now I know that someone is going to make the obvious comment that in this case I would have committed the first crime and this is perfectly true. The reason for the (poor) analogy is simply to draw attention to the fact that there is a point at which emotion will override basic common sense and morality, and that if someone places themselves in that situation they cannot possibly claim it is entirely the greater or final aggressor at fault.
I accept this doesn’t make it right and the law does too, but it fortunately allows for the fact that humans are humans.
Should adult human beings have to take responsibility for the affect their actions are going to have on other human beings? Do they need to accept that at some stage it will be impossible to reverse the consequences of those actions?
Redefining a term to mean what you want it to mean, and denying the right of others to have a differing definition is a very silly attitude. Rape is no more a terrorist act than theft is.
American law does recognize “crimes of passion” (with varying language), but only in the context of physical assault. Sexual assault would never be covered under such a plea (nor should it).
The idea that one was enraged to the point of losing control may mitigate a situation of anger and hostility. That would never excuse a rape.
Fair enough, but I didn’t mean to imply that a person could be enraged enough to commit rape. Reading back I realise it came across that way. What I was trying to suggest is that there may be a point when it is impossible for a person to control their lust, just as there is a point when they can no longer control their rage.
Hmmm, is it rape if both parties were drunk as hell and don’t remember a thing? I would think so, since they clearly were not in a state where honest consent could be given. That is, if we define rape as non-consentual sex. Unless there can be non-rape nonconsentual sex? If that’s the case, I’ve finally made my case for incest. Not bloody likely. Both parties would be, say, liable for a pregnancy in that case, however. What a crazy topic. How do you prosecute for simultaneous rape?
Anyway, the “no means no” stuff kinda bothers me. Remember those “this is not an invitation to rape me” posters with the hot women on them? Same thing. For a rapist, it is an invitation to rape. Similarly, rapists won’t listen to no. They’re just fucking psychos any way you slice it.
Of course, when a girl tells me “no,” or “stop,” I sure as hell listen. But, its like locks keeping honest people honest. A great idea, but when you’re screwded you’re screwed.
As well, now that viagra is out, as well as other erection-inducing drugs, female-to-male rape is much more possible (I’ve always kinda doubted it existed, IMHO). Anyone ever heard of this?
Actually, as soon as you say “I don’t want to fight with you,” you’ve withdrawn, and any attack by the other bloke is a fresh assault. His is a self defense issue–not a crime of passion one–and most self-defense statutes only authorize the use of force sufficient to repel the attack. Once you’ve withdrawn, the other guy’s only legal recourse is to have you arrested.
Was in an awkward situation a few months back with a friend of mine, actually. (I’m female, he’s not.) The man, 7 years younger than I am, had been drinking heavily all night, and I drove him to my house, where he was going to spend the night in my guest room. I was sober.
He seriously was hitting on me, and we’d had a slightly flirtatious relationship before. He was naked, with an erection, even though we weren’t touching, etc, and I was clothed. Definitely coming on strong.
He was so drunk he was vomiting within the hour, and in the morning, asked, “Dwala, why am I naked?” (I cracked up. He’s all big brown eyes and innocence, and he was so sincere.) I had no idea he was that intoxicated. I could have chosen to have sex with him. I didn’t, but if I had, I would have been taking advantage of his condition, and it would have been date rape.
Very possible for a woman to date rape a man. He doesn’t have to be taking Viagra to be aroused to functioning capacity sexually, without functioning capacity mentally.
When you say this would have been date rape, are you giving YHO or the law in your part of the world?
I’m with EJsGirl on this one. I’ve done things while drunk that I would never have done while sober. I’m not going to insult Needs2know by claiming that I was victim to as horrible a thing as she was.
Besides (and this isn’t relating to dwala’s post, but to those who generally claim that having sex with a drunk woman is rape) - in most of my alcohol-fuelled escapades the guy was just as drunk as I was. It’s hypocritical, and not just a little demeaning to women, to claim that we can’t be held responsible for our behavior while drunk, but men can.
even sven, quite frankly, you sound like a guy I know in San Francisco who freely steps out into traffic no matter how many cars are whizzing by on the grounds that “I’m a pedestrian, I have the right of way.” He’s correct, of course, but that’s going to be little comfort to him when he’s killed by one of these cars (which I’m amazed hasn’t happened yet). Telling women to take precautions is simply acknowledging reality, and I hope for your sake you don’t really take as casual an attitude towards it as you seem to.
I guess it isn’t obvious to you, but those posters were not directed at the “pyscho” rapist, but the guys who believe things like “no means ‘try a little harder’” and “if she dresses like that she’s asking for it”. To proceed to have non consensual sex based on “gee I assumed she wanted sex with me 'cause she dressed provocatively/let me in to her apartment/got in the car with me/came to my apartment/kissed me/got drunk” or whatever is rape.
rapists, of course, do not need an invitation to rape.
You are agreeing with me? I claim rapists are psyvhos who won’t listen, and you point out that these persons, clearly, didn’t listen. Um? Are you trying to differentiate out-and-out rapists from people who thought they could have sex with a girl without her explicit permission? I fail to see the difference. When you force yourself on someone ina sexual way it is rape. I said rapists don’t listen to “no.” ???
I think the campaign was great because it brought the topic into greater awareness, but not because it prevented date rape by reaffirming the meaning behind words. Many rapes, to my understanding, are still not reported. Awareness in this instance can never be high enough, IMO.
I carry a hefty canister of pepper spray, and if I am out late at night I always make one of my burly guy friends go with me.
But I hate that. I hate that there are so many things that I can’t do without fear of terrible violence, that my guy friends can do. There is fear instilled into us from the time we are little girls, and it is a fear that we have to deal with for our entire lives. I hate that I will never be without that undertone of fear. And I see it as terrorism, because it is an act that forces a portion of the population to act in a certain way (not going out at night, etc.) under the threat of violence.
So what I am saying isn’t that you shouldn’t take precautions, it’s that you shouldn’t have to. And we shouldn’t expect people to.
There are rapists who are, indeed psyhcos who don’t listen etc. There also are rapists who rigidly resist the term applied to themselves, because they do not see their actions as being rape. Don’t know your age or sex, but as a female who was dating in the 70’s there certainly were guys around who made claims like I referenced, seriously believing they were not rapists, that some how, coercion without force made it less coercive.
It seemed that you were stating that those posters served no purpose. I feel strongly that they did.
These two statements seem at odds. If the only defence allowable is one of self defence then when does anything approaching ‘crime of passion’ come into play. What I’m asking is if there is ever a time in either law or in your personal opinion when it is an acceptable defence to claim ‘ I acted unreasonably and possibly excessively simply because I am human and not entirely capable of controlling my emotions’. And if this is an acceptable defence for physical assault then why not sexual?
I agree with you completely, but none of those feelings are restricted to women. I hate having to lock up my house and car every time I leave them unattended, I hate having to lock my front door when I go to sleep at night, I hate the fact that I feel a need to cross to the other side of the street and not make eye contact when I see groups of men loitering in the streets. Granted rape is one crime that is committed more on women than men, but of course men are the victims of physical assault (and virtually every other crime) more than women. All violent crime is by your definition an act of terrorism because it forces some group of society to act in a certain way under threat of violence. So theft, if associated with threat of violence, is terrorism. I wouldn’t dream of walking the streets alone and unarmed at night, and I’m 6’ male with 7 years martial arts training. That’s just common sense, good practical self-defence and taking responsibility for my own safety.
In college I went up to OSU with my boyfriend, Mike. His friend was in dental school and his fraternity had a huge 5 keg party, which he invited us to. I felt like a 3rd wheel because everyone seemed to know each other except me. And, as usual, Mike soon had a harem of girls flocked around him because he was so charismatic and handsome. At one point he came back with two beers in his hand and handed one of them to a girl next to him, completely oblivious to the fact that my drink was empty. Anyway, I was hurt, mad, and jealous. So I started drinking my insecurities away on really bad vodka. I decided to give Mike a taste of his own medicine and started flirting outrageously with other men, who gave me all kinds of attention. Either Mike didn’t care or he didn’t notice. After several hours, Mike finally came over and informed me he was ready to go. I told him that I was having a good time and didn’t want to leave. Mike looked a bit confused, then looked at Jeff (who incidentally had his arm around me) and finally put two and two together. Mike kind of reddened and said, “Well, if you want a ride to Tony’s, I guess you’ll have to come with me.” I said, “Jeff can give me a ride home.” Jeff agreed, saying he knew where Tony lived. So Mike left to go to Tony’s – confused, embarrassed and pissed.
But HA! I really showed him!
We were walking to Jeff’s car when he came to the conclusion that he needed to sober up before driving me home. He asked me to come up to his apartment while he slept for a “few hours.” What choice did I have? I was in a strange town at 4am with a freaking stranger. And as I walked into his apartment, I had a sinking feeling in my gut a) I was all alone with a drunk guy I barely knew; 2) I had no idea where I was or where Mike’s friend lived. I didn’t even know Tony’s last name to call him. 3) Jeff expected me to sleep with him; 4) A couple hundred people had just witnessed me flirting with him outrageously; and 5) I didn’t want to sleep with him.
The night ended okay (for those who want details, suffice it to say I gave him a “hand job”.) But I’ll never forget how humiliating it was to being intimate with a guy I didn’t like. I had deliberately put mysel in a vulnerable position in order to get another guy jealous. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Had Jeff forced himself on me, there would have been no chance in hell he would have been convicted of rape. And I just remember thinking how lucky I was that he ended up being a decent guy.
Because, of course, he would have been at fault had he hurt me. But it would have been ME who paid the price.
Harsh experience and a hard lesson. I can’t see why he wouldn’t have been convicted of rape if he had commited the act and you had struggled. The struggle leaves more than enough evidence for convictions, particularly if you physically damaged him with scratches and bites. Of course if he threatened physical violence if you struggled then that would be harder to prove.
One thing I don’t understand. If you felt coerced into givig him a handjob when you felt humiliated by it how can you still say he turned out to be a decent guy?
Men are the victims of the overwhelming majority of violent crimes. I’m sure you truly are frightened going out at night; so am I. It’s quite possible that I am even more frightened than you, I don’t know.
Knowing that I am much more likely to be the victim of a violent crime is something that will be with me my entire life. It will always be an undertone of fear for me.
I’m sorry that you feel frightened, but please realize that women are not the only ones who need be frightened.