I don’t think it’s fair to put the onus entirely on men here. Women think that way too, otherwise they wouldn’t act that way or feel the need to act coy for appearance’s sake. Women should take responsibility for themselves and their well-being. We have to make our wishes clear if we want men to respond properly to our advances or protestations. And if a man expects me to be coy about my attraction to him or my sexual appetite, well, fuck that. Any man that you have to pretend with is a man not worth your time.
I have no tolerance at all for any women who may say “no” when they mean “yes”, but really, no woman would ever do that if she knew that all men would accept a “no” as a “no”. If all men treated a “no” as a “no” then there wouldn’t be any point to being coy and making mock refusals.
Sure, but it’s getting a bit chicken-or-the-egg. Any guy who grew up with coy=good, direct=bad ideas will continue to behave as if that is the case until he is corrected by experience, discussion, or, I dunno, revelation. Any woman who grew up thinking coyness was the acceptable standard of sexual behavior for women will continue to behave that way until she is corrected. Eventually, I hope everyone will communicate their sexual intentions clearly. But in the meantime, I can ensure my behavior makes my intentions clear, and any man I choose to be involved with will have to understand that when I, personally, say no, I mean no. I can talk about it with my friends or romantic interests. I can bring up my son to understand that. If enough women say to their friends, family, and fellow message board members, “When I say no, I mean no. I mean stop right there.” maybe men will think twice next time they’re faced with a refusal.
Attitude change has to start somewhere, and it makes sense for me to take as much responsibility for myself as I can than assume every guy I come in contact with thinks the way I do. Until all men are taught one way or another that any refusal should be taken seriously, I have to work on the assumption that none of them are, in order to preserve my well-being. I’m not excusing men from their responsibility to respect women and what women say - I’m simply advocating doing what you can to ensure clear communication.
I would like to ask some questions of people that have experienced date rape or been close to it, but when I have done so in some other forums I have somehow done it incorrectly. Maybe this thread is the right place to try again.
Still, I think I will start out by asking the other people discussing, not people who have experienced DR, what they think of the type of questions I might ask to people that had direct experience. If people with direct experience want to respond, great. If you think the questions are inappropriate, remember I wasn’t directing them to you (at this time).
Now then, do you think it would be permisible to breach the subject of resistance to date rape by asking victims questions like:
Did your attacker hit you? Did he tell you he would hit you?
Did you consider screaming? If someone put their hand over your mouth, did you consider biting it? If your hands were held, did you think about kicking? etc.
My reason for interest in this off-beat branch of a distasteful topic is that I recently have gotten involved with a type of ground-fighting martial art (Brazilian Jiujitsu). Before this, I guess I had the view that being pinned under someone meant you were immobile. Now I have a little better appreciation of what can be done when you are on your back and have your legs wrapped around someone’s waist who is on their knees facing you: You have your arms and legs available to control them.
Now this post is not an ad for a martial arts system; I realize there is usually a strength/weight/fighting experience advantage for the rapist over the rapee; I don’t claim a woman who does not fight back is in any way responsible for her rape: None of these things. I just want, without making anybody upset or feeling that I am judging them to know why the rapist did not get his eyes clawed out, bitten or kicked. Were the victims too scared to think of it, intimidated by threats of reprisal, or unable to resist for some reason?
No, I do not think that sort of questioning would be appropriate at all. I would not want to demand details about a traumatic experience that the victim did not first offer to tell. I also don’t think there’s any way to ask these particular questions without sounding as though you’re blaming the victim for failing to defend herself properly.
First I’d like to make it clear that there are plenty of cases where the victim does fight back, or at least tries to. There are many others where she has no chance to resist because she is unconscious, drugged, drunk, or otherwise incapacitated. Those cases aside, there can still be many reasons why a victim might not fight back even when it is physically possible for her to do so.
Remember that date rape is by definition a crime committed by someone the woman knows; it might be a guy she just met that night, but it might be her boyfriend, her neighbor, or a co-worker. This means that the woman is often surprised and confused as well as frightened. She may be unwilling to fight her boyfriend/whoever, even if he is forcing her to do something against her will. She might think that she has done something wrong and the whole thing is her fault. She might believe that it is impossible for a woman to defend herself against a man, at least not without a weapon or martial arts training. She may be afraid that the rapist will hurt her more if she tries to fight him. Or the idea of resistance may never occur to her at all, simply because women are taught to be non-aggressive and to resolve problems without violence.
I’m sorry, but viagra is not an aphrodesiac. It simply gets the blood pumping down there, producing an erection. There are other ways, though.
From “For Men Only: For Male Survivors of Sexual Assault”
(http://www.utexas.edu/student/cmhc/menassault.html)
Here we go. Viagra as a date rape drug? What the heck were you thinking?
He was implying a woman could rape a man by giving him Viagra, forcing him to have an erection.
But it wouldn’t take that - if someone plays with my penis there’s a good chance it will get hard, whether I want sex or not. One of the reasons guys can be leery about full physicals…
Yeah, if a woman tied you down and forced you to do it. This is just starting to sound absurd
Has anyone out there talked to their daughter about Date Rape? Do you urge them to scream and eye-gouge, or do you urge them not to risk any further violence to themselves?
Yes, women should be cautious. Yes, women should be wary of their situations and body language, etc. Yes, women should take responsibility for their own safety.
However, that still does not absolve the man of his responsibility in the act of raping a woman. Regardless of a woman’s risk-taking or carelessness, she still should not be raped. A woman who dresses scantily and walks suggestively may be inviting sexual approaches and should be prepared to deal with them. Yet she does not gain any responsibility if she is raped, simply because of her dress.
So, the issue of looking out for your own safety is a moot argument when the question is of responsibility.
FWIW - here in Wisconsin, if a guy has sex with a girl who is drunk, she can charge him with rape.
Like Needs2Know, I also survived date rape. And, like her, I also believe that I am partly to blame for the incident.
First of all, I was 19 years old, dating a 27 year old man. Over the 4 months that I went out with him, I often went to his apartment, sometimes to watch TV, sometimes just to make out. He assured me that he wouldn’t pressure me to do anything I didn’t want to. I believed him, until April 10, 1982. Yes, I tried to fight him. No, I didn’t scream, I prayed to god to help me. Guess what? No god! I got raped anyway (this partly explains why I am an atheist now!). I never reported it because I didn’t view it as rape for many years. I don’t recall hearing the term “date rape” until the mid-'80s, anyway. What sucks is being left to deal with all the emotional crap…I’ve spent thousands of dollars over several years on therapy to deal with this. Now I’m just pissed off about the whole thing. He got away with it, and I got a life sentence in hell. I haven’t dated anyone since then, because I don’t want to go through that garbage again.
The term “acquaintance rape” seems like a good description.