Dating etiquette & who pays?

In My Humble Opinion
21

Snort!

The basic idea behind etiquette was always to show respect and concern for others. Unfortunately, etiquette, like political correctness, another form of etiquette, can evolve to a point where it can be used to disrespect and hurt others. Sometimes it’s just better to just cut the bull.

At least in Canada and the U.S., I don’t see any rules or roles. You can pay or not pay or both pay, ask him, ask her, call him, call her, open doors, throw your greatcoat down on puddles, or not.

My advice as a 20’s-30’s male is to enjoy the dates and not make a big deal about logistics. I’m pretty sure most men will be willing to pay entirely for the first few dates at least, it’s nice to “be the man” and make a lady feel secure that you can take care of all the details and give her special attention. Conversely, I don’t think most modern men want to play etiquette power games or be saddled with a “helpless” woman. Sure, bras and panties and makeup and hairdressers and clothes are expensive, men get this, but you do have a job, right? You’re not just lounging at home eating bonbons and waiting for gentleman callers? Your phone has buttons too?

My reading of the OP is that you’re overly stressed about it though. Relax. Enjoy. Have a laugh about it, you find out much about yourself on dates as well. If he “forgets” his wallet or claims a “sports injury” should physical effort be required, he’s got the problem. If you’re expecting him to fight off a pack of wild dogs with his bare hands or mariachis at your workplace the next morning, you’ve got the problem. It’s pretty much common sense, which is a good thing to check for in a person.

Ah yes, my original reason for posting: Can anybody tell me what movie this is from? I’ve seen this somewhere.

22

A Bronx Tale.

It was used in song lyrics too - but I can’t remember details. Anyone else?

23

Thanks.

24

BTW, women should bring enough money to pay for themselves. This is cause if you’re having dinner with a guy & after an hour & lots of beer or wine, the guy starts talking about how a woman better put out & have sex with him if he pays for dinner. This way she can pay for herself & get out of that…

25

What Aries28 and SwimmingRiddles said.

I’m a 44 y.o. male.

26

Annaplurabelle:

That was great! One question: you aren’t perhaps a lawyer are you (he, he). Lot’s of word twisting and assumptions going on. And why would you accuse me of not being a good listener? Was that nice?

Some how the sitations and how things unfolded became misconstrued. That’s the problem with emails. Anyway, here’s how I see things (and Thanks so much everyone, seriously, for the input).

Newly divorced: be it either guy or gal, people who date newly divorced people should do so with eyes wide open. I have the best intentions and will not hurt anyone’s feelings intentionally (and don’t think I have)

I live in the Bible belt in a town of about 175,000. Lot’s of good girls here.

I’m a physician (which may be part of the problem)

None of these were first dates. I don’t even kiss a girl on the first date.

Too much is being read into my words. We went out several times, sex was involved, some would call me afterwards, we would go out again, and I payed.

As to why they called me and not vice versa is strictly because I’m not into starting a serious relationship where I’m going out every weekend. I like my private time and am getting comfortable in my own skin again. They called. What can I say.

Don’t know if that helped or not. I just think, in this day and age, things would’ve been different than when I started out many moons ago. I know if I were a girl, I’d WANT to demonstrate to the man my willingness to contribute towards the evening, even if he asked me out, or at least offer to go dutch. To me it shows character and class, for this day and age. No, not 20 or 30 yrs ago but certainly these days. I don’t think I’m a bad guy or leading these girls on (oh, and it’s girls in these neck of the woods and is strictly appropriate here) and I was merely curious about the who pays thing since I’ve been out of circulation for a while.

Well, Counseler Annaplurabelle, what say ye?

27

Paying: Whoever wins the staring contest pays. I always offer to pay. I think it’s best to keep it even, but, on a first date, I’d expect the person who started it to pay. The rule also applies to particularly expensive later dates. For instance, my fiancee wanted to go to a My Life with the Thrill Kill Kult concert with his friends, and asked me to come along. I said I would, but he paid as it was his idea and I hadn’t even heard of the band.

Opening doors: Whoever gets there first holds it for the other person. Anything else is silly. If the guy insisted, that’d be fine, but I wouldn’t expect it or be upset if he didn’t.

Calling: When you say you will, but only if there’s at least a passable reason for calling. I’m a stickler for plans, though, and, in a serious relationship, expect there to be some plan to rendezvous sometime in the future. Anything after a week, and I’m going to assume you’re not interested, and will probably forget about you. Have a creative reason if this is the case.

I just turned 20 in May.

28

Except if you’re a single male physician looking for dates, my post makes much less sense. Mods please change my post to: “Ladies, flirt with this guy.”

29

With me its a non-issue I make enough dough that I always pay when I take my girl out. However she also knows when she comes over to my house on the weekends shes expected to clean my house, do my luandry and cook me ( and my roommate) breakfast in the morning.

However before my good money making days I’d always work it out something like this:

First date: I pay for everything.

second date: I’d call her up and say something like… “Hey listen babe, I had a really good time on our last date. Why don’t we go out and do something again; I was thinking something like …uh… oh I don’t know… dinner and a movie? I’ll pay for dinner you pay for the movies? Or maybe YOU’VE got a better idea of something we can do.”

Basicaly what you have to do here is take comand of the situation. (most girls like this) This also lets her know that you’re not Donald Trumph. And notice I said “…maybe you’ve got a better idea…?” This lets her know that she welcome to sugest I deas becuase after all she is going to pay for
something.

One rule I would aply though is; even if you all are going to share the cost of a night out; You (the guy) should pay at least a little more. I’d say about 60-40 (her favor) This is a double standard I know but what ya gonna do?

And in the end if shes not cool with all this then screw her; she ain’t worth a damn anyway. If she doesn’t care that you taking her out means the difference between you eating meat and potatos all week or you eating ramen noodles all week, then shes just a cold heartless bitch.

30

34/M checking in;

Opening Doors: I consider polite to hold the door open in any situation if I arrive first and being on a date doesn’t change that.

Opening Car Doors: Nope. You have arms, use them. If you are expecting me to do things like this for you I’m probably going to start assuming you are the needy, clingy type who wants everything done for you and we aren’t going to get along.

Paying: I’ll always offer to pay. On a 1st I’ll pretty much do everything I can to make sure I pay. On subsequent dates I’ve usually taken it in turns.

Calling: If I say I’ll call, I wll. Can’t handle the rules regarding leaving it 1, 2, 3 or 7 days (or whatever the “rules” are these days) so I’ll call in a couple of days. If you call me, thats fine too.
My general thing with dates is that if there is chemistry then all of the fretting and worrying about who should do what goes away. If there is no chemistry, don’t date that person.

31

Apologies for the not nice bits - the post came off harder than I realised/intended when I wrote it. I thought I had a point, but on review I don’t think I presented one. :smack: I did assume and misconstrue - but - key information was withheld! (I’m not a lawyer; guess I should have requested discovery before my opening statements, huh?)
So disregarding most of the previous assumptions…

Possible Rationales:
1)Dating etiquette in your ‘neck of the woods’ might be a bit more traditional/conservative. If grown women don’t mind being called girls (and ‘good girls’ at that) - is it inconsistent or surprising that they’d have a ‘man pays for everything’ frame of mind?
2)The perception that, as a physician, you can easily afford to foot all the expenses, could be a factor too.
3)Psycho-babble: Maybe they were withholding financially to compensate/retaliate(?) for the unconscious (angry?) realisation that you were withholding emotionally?
4)Back to my first post assertion: You really didn’t come across as being that interested in them in the long term; maybe they read it that way too, and avoided making a financial investment in a dead end situation.

Possible Solutions to the Above:
1)Move to a new town? Join a local feminist group or related org? As a last resort, start a local feminist group or related org?
2)Is this really a problem? Date other physicians. As a last resort, lawyers (he he).
3)Specifically, date psychiatrists. Mention rationale #3 on the first date as a research study of interest. Suggest you help each other work through your unproductive unconscious passive-aggressive impulses (I might be kidding).
4)Sorry if ‘invest’ sounds crass or shallow. Isn’t dating an investment? Is approaching it this way any more crass or shallow than approaching dating as an opportunity for casual fun/sex? I’m not saying this as a dig to you, Artemius - there’s nothing wrong with wanting sex and a few laughs and no commitment. But you know this - unless it’s exactly what both parties want, it’s going to come off badly. Feeling taken for granted can work both ways. And it’s not a man thing - there are women who aren’t looking for a serious relationship either - if they hook up with a serious-intent-guy there’ll be problems there too.

To be fair, they shouldn’t have called without a reciprocal offer of some kind, regardless of the possible rationales mentioned above. That was a little crass. I understand why you might have felt taken for granted. But when you got the calls requesting another date, it might have been the perfect opportunity to broach the subject, no? Or previously: In the course of those several dates, was it too difficult to talk about what your expectations were, much the way you’ve delineated them on these boards? If so, isn’t the lack of communication issue more important than the who pays issue? Or are you saying they were guilty of not being good listeners?

However: If they’d offered to pay, would it really have made a difference in the course of the relationships? Again, not a personal dig, but are you sure you’re not focusing on this issue as a way of justifying your low level of interest in situations where you could “find nothing else to criticise”, but no longer wanted to continue? Some guilt on your part? Not that I necessarilly think it’s justifiable to feel guilty - but if you do, then it’s another issue for you to think about…

32

Wow, SHAKES, you’re a real Texan gentleman, aren’t you. My mama’s heart is breaking that I’ve already found somebody else. :smiley:

Seriously, this is gross. If you make such good money why don’t you hire a maid to clean your house and do your laundry? Why does “your girl” owe you some housecleaning and cooking in exchange for a free meal? I’m baffled and appalled. I’m even more baffled that some girl is taking you up on this “bargain.”

But I digress. To the OP, DO NOT follow SHAKES’ advice at all. If a man took me out to dinner and then called me up and wanted to know first-off how we were going to split the tab on the next date, he wouldn’t get that next date. This is high-school type stuff; if you’re a grown man and you don’t have enough money to pay for a few dates, why are you dating? You’re the one who asked her out; if you end up in a relationship with her, you can both spring for the tab and/or do things at home that don’t require “going out,” but at first, I think it’s crass to expect a woman to pick up the tab on the evening.

If she’s a classy woman, she’ll offer, and you’ll refuse. If she ends up having champagne tastes and expecting you to splurge on her constantly, that’s a whole different problem, but a gentleman always pays for a date he asked for and seeing if she wants to “pay for the movie” on the second date is in incredibly bad taste. If you don’t have a great deal of money, do inexpensive things you can afford; a girl who likes you will have no problem with a picnic dinner or a local pub or a night with DVD’s and popcorn.

Get with the program, SHAKES.

[sub]I’m still not getting over the whole “she knows she has to clean my house and do my laundry and feed my roommate” bit. Good lord.[/sub]

33

Hold on now Audrey Levins your post seems a little self centered. You’re telling this guy if he can’t foot the bill for the both of them then he doesn’t deserve to date? [shivers] burr! somebody get me a coat its cold in here! [shivers]
And as far as my GF is concerned nobody’s holding a gun up to her head; she can hit the road any time she wishes. And trust me she gets the better end of the bargin; on us going out I think I spend, easy, about three hundred a month. And I wont even mention the out of town trips we’ve taken together all on me.

34

Annaplurabelle wrote:

<<Possible Rationales:>>

<<1)Dating etiquette in your ‘neck of the woods’ might be a bit more traditional/conservative. If grown women don’t mind being called girls (and ‘good girls’ at that) - is it inconsistent or surprising that they’d have a ‘man pays for everything’ frame of mind?>>

Conservative? Ah, yes. That word was invented here. Girls? Look when you turn 50 and are dating girls in their 40’s, being called a girl is a compliment. They love it and I mean it as a compliment.

<<2)The perception that, as a physician, you can easily afford to foot all the expenses, could be a factor too. >>

Yes, I was thinking the same.

<<3)Psycho-babble: Maybe they were withholding financially to compensate/retaliate(?) for the unconscious (angry?) realisation that you were withholding emotionally?>>

I think you’re over analyzing, IMO. I’m just a recently divorced guy seeking casual female relationships/companionship. While I understand that a lot of women in my situation would choose not to date at all for quite some time, for me, I need the companionship. Emotionally, I’m certainly not fit for a serious relationship at present. Also, I can’t withhold what I don’t have to give at the moment.

<<4)Back to my first post assertion: You really didn’t come across as being that interested in them in the long term; maybe they read it that way too, and avoided making a financial investment in a dead end situation. >>

Come on. Financial investment in a dead end situation You’re painting your cohorts as pretty shallow and calculating aren’t you?

<<Possible Solutions to the Above:>>

<<1)Move to a new town? Join a local feminist group or related org? As a last resort, start a local feminist group or related org?>>

Ha, ha. Me? starting a femininst group? Just what I need, gay rumors! He, he

<<2)Is this really a problem? Date other physicians. As a last resort, lawyers (he he). >>

No, not a real problem. I was just wondering. Also, as far as I know there are no cute, single, docs that I’d be interested in (and vice versa). But I’m always on the lookout! Lawyers? Please, I’m feeling slimey all over.

<<3)Specifically, date psychiatrists. Mention rationale #3 on the first date as a research study of interest. Suggest you help each other work through your unproductive unconscious passive-aggressive impulses (I might be kidding).>>

I hope so! You don’t think too much of me, do you? He, he.

<<4)Sorry if ‘invest’ sounds crass or shallow. Isn’t dating an investment? Is approaching it this way any more crass or shallow than approaching dating as an opportunity for casual fun/sex? I’m not saying this as a dig to you, Artemius - there’s nothing wrong with wanting sex and a few laughs and no commitment. But you know this - unless it’s exactly what both parties want, it’s going to come off badly. Feeling taken for granted can work both ways. And it’s not a man thing - there are women who aren’t looking for a serious relationship either - if they hook up with a serious-intent-guy there’ll be problems there too. >>

Point taken.

Artemius wrote (<<< >>>)

<<<We went out several times, sex was involved, some would call me afterwards, we would go out again, and I payed. As to why they called me and not vice versa is strictly because I’m not into starting a serious relationship where I’m going out every weekend. I like my private time and am getting comfortable in my own skin again. They called. What can I say.>>>

Anna replied:

<<To be fair, they shouldn’t have called without a reciprocal offer of some kind, regardless of the possible rationales mentioned above. That was a little crass. I understand why you might have felt taken for granted. But when you got the calls requesting another date, it might have been the perfect opportunity to broach the subject, no? Or previously: In the course of those several dates, was it too difficult to talk about what your expectations were, much the way you’ve delineated them on these boards? If so, isn’t the lack of communication issue more important than the who pays issue? Or are you saying they were guilty of not being good listeners?>>

O.K. You’ve nailed me here. I should’ve broached the subject but I’m too much of a wimp. I don’t like uncomfortable situations (any shrinks out there?!, he, he) Plus, being a physician, I felt (I think) that had I brought up the subject they might have thought I was a cheapskate. Plus, I just felt/expected/assumed after a 2-3 dates they would start offering to at least split the costs based on principle.

<<However: If they’d offered to pay, would it really have made a difference in the course of the relationships? Again, not a personal dig, but are you sure you’re not focusing on this issue as a way of justifying your low level of interest in situations where you could “find nothing else to criticise”, but no longer wanted to continue? Some guilt on your part? Not that I necessarilly think it’s justifiable to feel guilty - but if you do, then it’s another issue for you to think about…>>

Boy, not only are you a lawyer but now you sound like a shrink as well! He, he.

If they had offered to pay I’d certainly have more respect for their principles. As to the course of the relationship(s), it probably wouldn’t have made any difference in the sense that there’d be wedding bells, whether they paid or not. But, it would make a difference in that we’d still be going out (probably) as friends. As it is, we stay in touch via email. Curious how they haven’t specifically asked me out but my gut tells me they are waiting for me to do the asking. Again, me thinks it’s my job and my conservative locale. And we’re only talking about 2 gals. I’m currently dating another one that I’m about to break it off for the same reason.

In fact, I’m seriously thinking about just not dating anymore until I run into someone I feel a strong connection to.

Thanks, Anna. I do appreciate your interest. BTW, IMO, I feel being a good listener truly is one of my best qualities. Also, I never said I was attractive, just that no one has told me I was unattractive. Also, you didn’t tell us how old you are.

35

Well, SHAKES, I applaud whatever policies work for you; if you’ve had success with your methods I can’t argue.

But yes, I am saying that if a guy can’t afford to take a girl out and pick up the tab, perhaps he shouldn’t pick up the phone. You’re asking a lot of a girl if you’d like her to go on a second date with you, when you’re still figuring out if you like each other, and also pay for the privilege. If she calls you, by all means go Dutch or let her pick up the tab. But you don’t get to invite someone out and then make them pay for it, too. I just think this is intensely tacky, and I’d never agree to it.

But more power to you if it’s working for you.

36

Female in her 20s

Paying: In my opinion, s/he who invites should pay.
I have not normally initated the first date, so normally I do not pay the first time, but I usually initiate the second date, and therefore pay for the entire date, whether its just dinner or dinenr and the movie or whatever.
If the relationship progresses to many dates, I usually just alternate to avoid arguing over the check. If I make significantly more or less than my date, I just adjust the place I suggest when it’s my turn to host.

SHAKES’ comment, “Hey listen babe, I had a really good time on our last date. Why don’t we go out and do something again; I was thinking something like …uh… oh I don’t know… dinner and a movie? I’ll pay for dinner you pay for the movies? Or maybe YOU’VE got a better idea of something we can do.”
would probably offend me a little, as I wouldn’t like someone to SUGGEST that I pay, since I am pretty fair and try to make things equitable on my own without being asked. However, if I dated someone who never offered to pay, I think that might be a good way to bring it up. I just wouldn’t use it without giving your date a chance (or several chances) to offer to pay now and then.

Doors: I believe doors should be opened by the person who reaches them first. In restaurants with two sets of doors, this usually means person A opens the first door as Person B walks through and immediately opens the next door for Person A. I think Person B would look foolish standing there waiting for Person A to dash ahead to open the second door.

Calling: The guest shows good manners by calling the host the next day (or two) to say s/he had a nice time. It’s traditional that after the first date, however, the man calls. Many women may be more comfortable with that.

Good luck.

37

OK Audrey Levins , First off let me say this: Dating isn’t about who pays for what its about two people trying to connect with each other.

Now the reason why I told the OP he had to take command of the situation is for this scenario right here:

Boy and Girl go out on date; Boy pays for everything and date goes great!

Now boy decides he really likes girl and would like very much to go out with girl again but the thing is he can’t afford to foot the bill for both. Now he can afford to take himself out but can’t afford to take her out.

And yet again Girl really likes boy too but just like the boy she can’t afford to take him out but she can afford to take herself out.

So here we have two people that could be perfectly happy with each other but they can’t because of some stupid rule that states who ever calls and invites has to pay. PLEASE GIVE ME A BREAK!

Typically to get over humps like these its left up to the man to take command of the situation or to handle this so called awkwardness. typically

38

I’m all for equality, but I prefer to open doors, pull out chairs, and pay for my date. Unless she asks otherwise, it’s the gentlemanly way to act.

39

For the same reason? This is clearly a big issue for you. And yet you thought I was over-analyzing when I mentioned how financial status/money might have a deeper symbolic meaning?

I know there are individualised personal reasons, but it seems to affect MD’s quite often. In the spirit of discovery: I used to work in med. admin. and hospital social services. Knew/know a lot of Doctors. Dated a few. My ex is a physician. Many of them have an unhealthy (pun intended) near obsessive interest in money issues, only one of which is who pays. A lot of them are cheapskates, even more so when you adjust the amount of money involved in these scenarios, relative to the percentage of their income.

In all fairness to my ex: He wasn’t/isn’t a cheapskate per se, and in fact was/is overly generous financially towards the people in his life. But, his money issue is: Getting-the-Best-Price. You know what I mean, right? And I mean for anything and everything - from cars to cans of tuna. When you consider the time spent in this endeavour, against the amount of money he earns per hour, plus the limited amount of free time he currently has (he works at least 80 hours a week)… it’s just nuts. He’s obsessed with being “cheated” out of something, even if it’s the equivalent of pennies (It gets worse: Lately he’s taken to continuing to price items he’s already purchased, to see if he’d somehow overlooked a better deal. Almost like he wants to feel cheated…).

Funnily enough, they almost always justify their money issues the same way you justify your dating expenses issue: “I know can afford it but, it’s the principle…”.

When it comes to dating principles, I’m a Marxist - as in Groucho:
“These are my principles. If you don’t like them, I’ve got others.”

And IHMO (to segue back on topic), that’s the best way to determine the principle of who pays in any given dating situation: It’s all relative (to the individual situation). How can it be an absolute?

Also, you didn’t tell us how old you are.

Sorry. I’ll be 40 in six months. So I don’t know if I’m a 20’s-30’s or a 40’s-50’s representative view (not that I actually represent anyone else’s views)…

40

Anna,

You are just tooo funny. You made me laugh.

O.K. So you are privy to how nuts us docs can be. You’d have some quirks too if you’d spent all that time in school/training, dealing with patients, managed care, hospitals, etc. Show me a doctor with a perfect personality and no flaws and you’ll show me someone not human.

Your ex sounds a little over the top IMO. I’m not that bad. Although I do have my socks lined up and alphabetized by color (beige, black, blue, brown,gray, green, etc) He, he.

In all fairness to myself, I don’t think I’m being obsessive about this who pays thing. I didn’t demand offers of going dutch on the first date now did I? It’s like that example someone gave regarding whether your date will reach over and unlock your car door after having unlocked hers. I’ll keep plugging along and pay special interest to that girl/gal that offers to pay despite my physician status. After all, it’s the p-r-i-n-c-i-p-l-e (he, he, he). Thanks Anna and all you other nice folks for the great advice. And SHAKES, whatever works, eh?