SHAKES, perhaps I can see an inkling of why you still manage to get girls to date you, even with all your screwed up methods. 
Artemius, I don’t know who lied to you, but women don’t just want equality. They want it all. 
And until you can get what a woman has without the woman herself, she gets to make the rules.
So yes, unfortunately, they can have it both ways.
Women that use men in that manner, IMO, will always miss the boat.
(Oops. That previous post got screwed up. This is a corrected re-post)
Audrey wrote:
<<Artemius, I don’t know who lied to you, but women don’t just want equality. They want it all. And until you can get what a woman has without the woman herself, she gets to make the rules.>>
Not entirely. Women that are truly happy, IMO, don’t think that way. Show me a woman that does and I’ll show you a shallow/superficial person that is either unhappily single or unhappily married.
Audrey wrote:
<<So yes, unfortunately, they can have it both ways.>>
Women that use men in that manner, IMO, will always miss the boat
Artemius, my post was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek; however, I do get tired of men trotting out women’s lib as a reason not to pick up the check/open the car door/give up their seat/behave like a gentleman/what not-what not.
This is, IMO, pointless; just b/c women have the right to vote, and get equal pay for equal work, doesn’t mean that they are invalidated as women. And any man who thinks this way will undoubtedly find out he’s wrong, whether he likes it or not.
That was my only point; I am a happily soon-to-be-married woman, in a relationship of five years, and I have never “used a man” for what he can offer me, monetarily or otherwise.
The fact still remains, however, that regardless of what men think, women do make the rules when it comes to dating/courtship, etc.
You know this has nothing to do with etiquette but as someone who has been there and done that and has moved on with her life…and is single and happy. I do have a word of advice. It’s this. You have to dump all that baggage before you can be happy. get rid of the victiminzation of “Oh poor poor me, I am a single doctor and all women want me for is my money.” If you think that, then that is probably going to be true. Maybe you need to work through some issues before you get into any relationships at all. Sorry for the hi-jack.
Expect women to like you for you and they might. Who pays really is as irrelevant as who opened the door you walked through.
PS - I thought you were pretty cool before I had any idea what you did for a living at all. My last 4 boyfriends have had these professions.
Commercial airline pilot, military intellegence officer, neonatalist, fighter pilot. I’m not all that impressed by the title “doctor” nor the money you make. I am definitely less impressed with predjudice about all women be ing gold diggers. I think you are missing the boat. Remember when I told you it was a class issue? Just date classier women to begin with doc. If you date people who are in your own social status then you are going to avoid all that bias but you have all this baggage that you might chase women in that social caste away if you present yourself in that manner. I am not trying to be rough with you but damn! Get a grip. Being a doctor isn’t ALL THAT! Get over yourself.
Mipiace,
May I suggest that you keep moving on? 
You are making some really off base assumptions and accusations. You go from judging to playing shrink. Didn’t realize you were so talented.
Talk about issues! doctor title, less impressed, prejudice, gold diggers, baggage, get a grip. Does the saying regarding glass houses mean anything to you?
Look, I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings and I’m sorry if I came off as harsh. But I don’t know what makes you think that women want to barter food for sex…at least that isn’t how it’s done where I come from. I consider myself much more civilized than that. It irritates me to hear men thinking that women are stil stuck in that 70s mind set of wanting to fight in the front lines but still give me a good man to pay all my bills. At least I don’t remotely think that way and I don’t know anyone who does. I don’t look for a man based on his earning potential - I find that ridiculous. I expect a degree of equality, I’ve said since the beginning of this thread that I share expenses and don’t rush into bed. So - truce?
…and where in the Bible belt do you live? (so I never make the mistake of landing THERE!)
When a woman sees single doc tor and thinks $$$ does that imply gold digger to you? Or was that my mistaken impression?
doctor title…have three or four of y our threads mentioned your docorate?
less impressed…yep, I am not all that impressed
predjudice…meaning, you have preconceived notions about women thinking you make a lot of money. I didn’t say it but I was referring to the afore mentioned threads. You seemed a bit paranoid about that. If I was wrong about that, I certainly apologize. I was my inference because you had mentioned it several times.
Baggage - another inference becuase of your recent divorce, because of your obvious current feelings for your ex, and because of the above referenced threads. (hey this is kind of fun!)
get a grip - I say that sometimes when I am pissed - also an Aerosmith song I like a lot
Glass houses - yeah I know the phrase but I really think I’ve gotten over most of my issues. At least the ones I had about my divorce. He was a total bastard and I was pretty glad to get rid of him. I have a boyfriend now that I have some issues with but that is kind of another story all together!! Nothing to do with ettiquette or who pays or anything else. I could tell you abotu it but it would totally hijack this thread…
So no, I am not a shrink, not saying I’m perfect, not saying I am a psychologist or a holy doctor [SHOCK! I do NOT have a PDH!!! I only have a master!!! OMG THE SHAME OF IT ALL!!] But I have been through a divorce and the healing afterward and if you think you don’t have baggage or you won’t have baggage you are totally kidding yoursefl. everyone one does. Give yourslef some time. I also went through some dating mistakes and learned some things the hard way afterward.
I know what it is like to feel awkward like you haven’t dated in a long time and don’t know the rules anymore. I know what it is like to have to get your “game” back. I’ve been there and for me at least, I like it better now thn I did before. I am more confident now and I don’t have to deal with the same shit I did in college. It’s much much better now. Hang in there - don’t think all women are eeeeeeevil - be selective and don’t listen to SHAKES.
Oh, and i didn’t mean I didn’t like you BECAUSE you were a doctor…I meant I liked you right off the bat not knowing what you did for a living. You could have been a refuse collector and I would have liked y ou so no, I am not shallow and judgemental. I’lll meave you to your resources. Good luck in the bible belt. i’m going back to civilization.
Mipiace wrote:
<<When a woman sees single doc tor and thinks $$$ does that imply gold digger to you? Or was that my mistaken impression?>>
Yes, slightly mistaken. More like, comfortable living.
<<doctor title…have three or four of y our threads mentioned your docorate?>>
Threads or posts? I only mentioned it here because I felt it was germaine to the subject. Should I be ashamed of being a doctor? Would you have the same thoughts if I kept repeating my occupation as a refuse collector?
<<get a grip - I say that sometimes when I am pissed>>
That seems to be the issue now, isn’t it? Why are you so pissed Mipiace?
<<Baggage - another inference becuase of your recent divorce, because of your obvious current feelings for your ex, and because of the above referenced threads. (hey this is kind of fun!) >>
I have great respect for my ex and it’s sad it’s over but I harbor no ill will. I have no baggage towards other women. I’m actually looking forward to moving on with my life and new experiences. It was difficult being on my own the first few months but I’ve grown to be quite comfortable in my own skin. I know I made mistakes in this marraige and hope I learned from them. Still, you appear to be making statements and judgments that are revealing. Why do you find this fun?
<<Glass houses - yeah I know the phrase but I really think I’ve gotten over most of my issues.>>
Are you sure?
<<At least the ones I had about my divorce. He was a total bastard and I was pretty glad to get rid of him.>>
Have you given any thought to why you keep attracting men that treat you so badly? Don’t you deserve better? I think so.
<I have a boyfriend now that I have some issues with but that is kind of another story all together!! >>
Issues now and you’re just boyfriend/girlfriend? Are you sure this isn’t a repeat performance?
<<Nothing to do with ettiquette or who pays or anything else. I could tell you abotu it but it would totally hijack this thread… >>
Start another one. I promise to be completely objective.
<<So no, I am not a shrink, not saying I’m perfect, not saying I am a psychologist or a holy doctor [SHOCK! I do NOT have a PDH!!! I only have a master!!! OMG THE SHAME OF IT ALL!!]>>
Why are you so defensive about your education? I often wish I had just gotten that forestry degree and got a job at Yosemite.
<<Hang in there - don’t think all women are eeeeeeevil >>
Why are you making the assumption (incorrect) that I think all women are evil? Where is that coming from?
I was joking…really…about almost all of the above. The fun, the education, the eeeevil…alll of it. Relax.
My boyfriend and I have been dating a few months. It’s too early to be more than boyfriend girlfriend. I don’t want to be more and he lives in a different town. He doesn’t treat me badly - he treats me well…remember we were at the state capital a few nights ago. He’s pretty wonderful.
I don’t think I attract men who treat me badly at all. My ex was never there and that was the fault of the US Air Force…just the way it was. We are still friends.
Anything else about me you care to analyze doc?
Oh why was I pissed? Chavenistic men make me angry. Why? Hmmmm Maybe I’ll discuss that with my therapist. What are your hourly rates?
Why does objectively observing women clamoring for equality while still trying to retain those Victorian aspects that work to their advantage make me a Chavanist (sp)?
Hourly rate? Why would you chose a therapist you don’t like?
Why does objectively observing women clamoring for equality while still trying to retain those Victorian aspects that work to their advantage make me a Chavanist (sp)?
Hourly rate? Why would you chose a therapist you don’t like?
Why does objectively observing women clamoring for equality while still trying to retain those Victorian aspects that work to their advantage make me a Chavanist (sp)?
Also, I am an ex-Army helicopter pilot, Navy aircrewman, and Pharmacist. Are those 3 more strikes against me? He, he.
Hourly rate? Why would you chose a therapist you don’t like?
QUOTE]*Originally posted by Audrey Levins *
Artemius, my post was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek; however, I do get tired of men trotting out women’s lib as a reason not to pick up the check/open the car door/give up their seat/behave like a gentleman/what not-what not.
Why do you get tired of it? Why is it even an issue? Why don’t women just pony-up? Maybe you don’t want to admit men have a valid point here. I think women who insist on this policy just don’t want to give up a good thing and I can’t say I don’t blame them. You are already admitting you already have a preconceived notion that the man should pay. What’s with that? Based on what? And what is a gentlemen? Isn’t that discriminatory? Shouldn’t you be saying gentleperson? Again, if it’s equality you’re after…
This is, IMO, pointless; just b/c women have the right to vote, and get equal pay for equal work, doesn’t mean that they are invalidated as women. And any man who thinks this way will undoubtedly find out he’s wrong, whether he likes it or not.
How does one invalidate a woman if women are clamoring for equality? We aren’t asking you to get a penis transplant. (YUK!)Aren’t you invalidating a man by insisting he should pay with no justifiable rationale (other than you have the pussy, he, he). Why so defensive? Can you explain that? You aren’t implying selective equality, are you, when it suits you? Women want equality everywhere else (except physical fitness requirements for admittance into firefighting school and military bootcamps–there it’s O.K. to have lower standards and inequality, right?) so what’s the beef with paying?
That was my only point; I am a happily soon-to-be-married woman, in a relationship of five years, and I have never “used a man” for what he can offer me, monetarily or otherwise.
You see, you appear to be practicing what I’m advocating.
**The fact still remains, however, that regardless of what men think, women do make the rules when it comes to dating/courtship, etc. **
[/QUOTE]
O.K. Then we should all admit that men and women aren’t equal. And women shouldn’t complain and badmouth men when they aren’t treated with respect or fairly. I’d also like to reiterate that if I were a woman it would make a hell of a lot more sense to pay my own way.
(disclaimer: This paying thing is really not a major issue for me {sorry Mipiace, Audrey, Anna} But the more I hear from the women here like Audrey, et al, the more it appears there is an interesting/curious reluctance to concede this point. It’s human nature not to want to give up something you’ve had for so long and my point is that I can understand the reluctance but, IMO, women are doing themselves a disservice by clinging to this Victorian code-of-conduct. You aren’t a stay-at-home, unemployed debutante or low-paying sex-a-tary waiting for a man to come-a-calling. Equality doesn’t stop at the cash register. Also, if I decide to date the check-out clerk a the local supermarket then it’s obvious I’ll be paying and I’ve no problem with that but this is not what I’m referring to and all of you know it. Also, I failed to acknowledge those of you gals, I mean - women, that posted and understood this. Sorry)
QUOTE]*Originally posted by Audrey Levins *
Artemius, my post was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek; however, I do get tired of men trotting out women’s lib as a reason not to pick up the check/open the car door/give up their seat/behave like a gentleman/what not-what not.
Why do you get tired of it? Why is it even an issue? Why don’t women just pony-up? Maybe you don’t want to admit men have a valid point here. I think women who insist on this policy just don’t want to give up a good thing and I can’t say I don’t blame them. You are already admitting you already have a preconceived notion that the man should pay. What’s with that? Based on what? And what is a gentlemen? Isn’t that discriminatory? Shouldn’t you be saying gentleperson? Again, if it’s equality you’re after…
This is, IMO, pointless; just b/c women have the right to vote, and get equal pay for equal work, doesn’t mean that they are invalidated as women. And any man who thinks this way will undoubtedly find out he’s wrong, whether he likes it or not.
How does one invalidate a woman if women are clamoring for equality? We aren’t asking you to get a penis transplant. (YUK!)Aren’t you invalidating a man by insisting he should pay with no justifiable rationale (other than you have the pussy, he, he). Why so defensive? Can you explain that? You aren’t implying selective equality, are you, when it suits you? Women want equality everywhere else (except physical fitness requirements for admittance into firefighting school and military bootcamps–there it’s O.K. to have lower standards and inequality, right?) so what’s the beef with paying?
That was my only point; I am a happily soon-to-be-married woman, in a relationship of five years, and I have never “used a man” for what he can offer me, monetarily or otherwise.
You see, you appear to be practicing what I’m advocating.
**The fact still remains, however, that regardless of what men think, women do make the rules when it comes to dating/courtship, etc. **
[/QUOTE]
O.K. Then we should all admit that men and women aren’t equal. And women shouldn’t complain and badmouth men when they aren’t treated with respect or fairly. I’d also like to reiterate that if I were a woman it would make a hell of a lot more sense to pay my own way.
(disclaimer: This paying thing is really not a major issue for me {sorry Mipiace, Audrey, Anna} But the more I hear from the women here like Audrey, et al, the more it appears there is an interesting/curious reluctance to concede this point. It’s human nature not to want to give up something you’ve had for so long and my point is that I can understand the reluctance but, IMO, women are doing themselves a disservice by clinging to this Victorian code-of-conduct. You aren’t a stay-at-home, unemployed debutante or low-paying sex-a-tary waiting for a man to come-a-calling. Equality doesn’t stop at the cash register. Also, if I decide to date the check-out clerk a the local supermarket then it’s obvious I’ll be paying and I’ve no problem with that but this is not what I’m referring to and all of you know it. Also, I failed to acknowledge those of you gals, I mean - women, that posted and understood this. Sorry)
Holy repeating hamsters!
Quick comment before I return to lurker status – and this comes from my own experience and observing others who’ve gone through the same thing.
Divorce, even the best, most friendly ones, leaves baggage. And it generally seems to take about one full calendar year to work through after the divorce is final.
/lurking again