Day Care vs. Home Care

There is a huge difference between day care and preschool. Most day care is over 8 hours a day and many parents start their children as babies.

Preschool is fewer hours and for older children.

My son is 3.5 and will start preschool this fall. He’ll go 3 days a week for 4 hours a day.

There are also so many other ‘socializing’ events to take children to. My own kids went to story time at the public library, had a play day with other neighborhood kids, and swim lessons at the local pool.

No day care /= no socializing!

I’m not saying that no day care = no socializing. What I’m saying is that in our particular case our daughter gets a much more entertaining and stimulating environment at preschool than she would have staying at home. YMMV.

My daughter is at school is 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. She’s been doing that since she was two and a half. The ages of the children range from a few months to kindergarten age. (Not all together … they group them into rooms by age.)

So is she in “daycare” or “preschool”?

Whether it was typical overall or not, I don’t know. I only know it was typical for my time and in my neighborhood. BTW, I didn’t say locked in a room, I said confined to a room- like stay out of the kitchen, stay out of the living room, especially during the soaps. Basically stay in the playroom, or the bedroom (depending on how many children were in the family) Which is precisely where mom usually wasn’t. She was either cooking, doing laundry, cleaning closets ,mopping floors ,or watching the soaps for a couple of hours in the afternoon.

I’m not going to dispute that women have had the primary responsibility for their children- but the wealthy have always had servants and the poor have always worked. Even if that work meant taking the children into the fields with them, or taking in laundry or piecework while still at home with their children. But there is a very big difference between the women having the primary responsibility for the children, and the raising of those children being treated as an almost full-time job in and of itself. A woman can easily have more responsibility for the care of children than her husband does and still spend more time doing the housework, feeding the animals, tending the vegetable garden ,etc than in actually interacting with the child. The sort of child-centered days I often hear stay-at-home parents describe (I neither doubt that they happen, nor am I knocking them) with playgroups and trips to the museum and interesting craft projects were simply not the norm. For a cite about the 1950s traditional family not being so traditional after all, see Stephanie Coontz, The Way We Never Were, or this article. http://usinfo.state.gov/journals/itsv/0101/ijse/scoontz.htm

About reading or baking or shopping- seems to me which is better depends more on the interaction than on the activity itself. If a mother’s only interaction with a child during a shopping trip is to say “no” , that’s different from a shopping trip where the mother is discussing the purchases with the child. Baking a cake with a child is not the same thing as baking a cake when the child simply happens to be home. Reading a book or playing a game with an interested parent is different from the same activity with a parent who just wants to get it over with. I am not at all saying that most SAHM nowadays don’t spend time actually interacting with their children. But I don’t think that a woman who is currently a very child- involved SAH would suddenly decide a perfunctory half-hour of bedtime reading per night was enough if economic disaster forced her to get a job and put her child in a day care center. I don’t think that an employed woman who only has the patience to spend an hour or two at a time actually doing something with her child (as opposed to simply being in the same house) will magically gain that patience when she loses her job, can’t find another and ends up staying at home. I don’t know whether families being randomly assigned to be either two-income or stay at home would change the results, by how much or in which direction- and we never will know because random assignment will never happen.

It’s also important to remember, when thinking about the history of child care, that until the 20th century, most families had more than the 2.5 children considered the norm today. Mom’s primary repsonsibility may have been the house and kids, but being the primary caretaker for 8 children of varying ages is very different than focusing all your energy and attention on 1 child. And remember, these pre-20th century housewives are responsible for making their families’ clothes–often even the fabric that the clothes were made of, raising and preparing their families’ food without refrigeration or electricity, cleaning the house without benefit of running water, vaccuum cleaners, etc.

Why in the world should we be focusing on the history of child care?

Wasn’t the question about which is best for children alive today?

Sort of , but assumptions are being made in even asking that question

  1. There’s an assumption that there is one best way for all or nearly all children, when in actuality, it appears that the closest we can come is what seems to be best for a particular family.

  2. There’s an assumption that the day care vs. home care is what causes the differences in the children, rather than other issues that may vary along with the use of day care -personalitity of the parent that causes them to use day care , financial issues (do stay-at-home families tend to be wealthier than those who use day care centers? Certainly, families with nannies tend to be wealthier than those who use day care centers. How do those kids come out? Do the results change when the affluent SAH are separated from the SAH getting by on public assistance, unemployment or disability income?). or that are related to day care but have nothing to do with the care itself (if a parent has only half an hour between the day care opening and the time they have to be at work, and the drive from day care to work takes 25 minutes, the parent will be stressed and so will the child) .

  3. There also seems to be an assumption that whichever is chosen as the best, switching will cause the other group to change. That if children in daycare had been in home care instead, they would be less aggressive, or that children currently in home care will become more aggressive if sent to day care . Or that the shy children would show less stress if they were going to spend the day at socializing activities with other children rather than at day care.

  4. And asking the question of what is the optimum while ignoring financial and psychological well-being while deciding which is the optimum simply doesn’t make sense. The choice is always going to be a particular day care center, a particular neighbor, or a particular relative vs a particular parent staying home. And financial and psychological considerations have to be brought into it . Otherwise, you’re deciding whether the average child is better off at home with the average SAH or in the average day-care center or with the average relative. And that average child probably lives in a family with the average 2.5 children.:slight_smile:

Well, because today we are caught in some bizarre nostalgic trap that idealizes the abberent familial situations that emerged from the specific economic conditions of the 1950s. This would be okay, except that this misplaced nostalgia harms people today. It prevents important social moves that could help millions (like state and employee sponsered child-care), shames women who are doing the best they can and fails to take reality into consideration- an important thing to do when making plans in the real world.

Beyond that, I believe the whole empahsis on what is “best” for a child is a harmful one. Of course we all want to protect our children. But no child is going to grow up in the ideal world. It’d be “best” if I hired Stephen Hawkings to teach the kid math, but that isn’t going to happen. It probably is “best” for a kid to grow up in a two parent heterosexual household. It might even be “best” for them to grow up on exactly three acres of land in Central Ohio. But ultimately what is best isn’t important. Meanwhile, we have parent feeling guilty, running up the credit card debt, and underestimating the importance of love because our current ideas of raising children as if they are going to be completely ruined if every aspect of their life doesn’t fit into some study. I firmly believe this is a ploy to keep people conservative, and to keep them buying lots of crap. I mean, it’s for the kids, right? How could I not buy that SUV when it’s for the sake of the children? How can I let that gay guy walk around where he could be near my kids?

My mom was stay-at-home for the first several years of my life. I sure knew the difference when I was being “babysat” by relatives, and when I was being “babysat” by non-relatives or strangers. I definitely prefered relatives.

Also, doreen, I grew up approx. the same era that you did, and my neighborhood could not be more different than yours. My sisters and I were never “confined” to one room, and as far as I know, none of the neighbor kids were either. Yow–what you describe sounds, well, unfathomable.

My mom was no Donna Reed perfect mom, (she was too screwball for that) but she took us on outings, read to us (started our love for reading at an early age) and was a fun mom (but not smothering over-protective “super-mom”). And we had all the neighbor kids to play with, so it wasn’t like we were anti-social little hermits. Also, it should be mentioned that my dad was far from distant–he made a point of getting time off to take us on outings and was very involved with us.

That is not to say that I think it’s horrible if kids are put in day care. Sometimes it’s a necessity. My sister put her kids in daycare and she’s a very devoted mom and the kids are just fine. But I do remember very fondly my childhood days when my mom was home (she got a job when I was older) and I wouldn’t have wanted it any other way. I can’t help but feel biased towards it, and while I don’t want anyone to feel “guilty” for putting their kids in day care or anything, I just think that sheesh–if you can afford to not do it, it’s definitely worth considering.

I think even sven is on to something, but it would be a little more accurate if she noted that children were often cared for by many members of the extended family. It’s a little different than daycare, but not the same as the singular mother-child care we now associate with stay-at-home moms. I’m not sure the mothers were necessarily absent, but neither were they the exclusive caregiver.

Unfortunately I gave away my copy of “Our Babies, Ourselves” which IIRC talks a bit about this.

I think these people were a tiny fraction of society.

Where do people get this notion of women working in fields from? I am sure this was extremely uncommon.

Well I don’t think this business of full time interacting with the child and “child-centered” days is necessarily a good idea either. Could cause the kid to grow up to be a self-centered spoiled brat. You are setting up a false dichotomy between child-centered days and day-care.

I don’t think it is possible to have a shopping trip with the only interaction being the mother saying “no”. Same goes for the other activities you describe.

Why set up these far-fetched extreme scenarios? Let’s talk about the likeliest normal course of events that would be likely to take place with a SAHM. Generally the mother will have other things to take care of, and will not be able to spend the entire day interacting with the child. But the child will be around and will participate to some extent in the daily activities along with the parent.

Actually I’m a bit unclear just what you are saying. First you seemed to suggest that the current norm for SAHM was child-centered days. Then you seem to be suggesting that these mothers frequently tune the kids out entirely (as your own mother seems to have done). I’m not sure just what your point is.

Again, do you intend on providing any support for the bizarre assertion that until the 50’s children were primarily raised by grandparents and siblings? If you want to talk about harming people today, I think it might be harmful to drastically rewrite history and use this bogus history as the basis for setting societal norms today.

Further, your argument is misplaced in any event. Here we have psychologists studying the actual effects of various forms of child care, and your response is to ignore these studies, in favor of proclamations that favoring SAHM is merely nostalgia for the 50’s. No logic in this at all.

A misplaced argument. Yes, we can’t always have the ideal. But it is worthwhile to know what the ideal is, so as to know how to make an intelligent choice in life. If you are buying a car, you might not be able to afford the best one, but that doesn’t mean you should pay no attention at all to the relative rankings.

If you read Stephanie Koontz book, or any good American Women’s Economic History text, you’ll discover than Sven is very right.

Prior to around 1950, more women worked outside the home than worked in the home. The numbers at the turn of the century are pretty astounding - there was little middle class - the whole family - including children - worked if you were poor. Sometimes at home. There are histories of immigrant families where the three year old watches the baby while the five year old helps mother and grandmother make silk flowers.

The house I used to live in was a turn of the century middle class home. With a servants stairway and a butlers pantry. No live in help, but the people who lived there 100 years ago would have hired in an Irish girl for a pittance to help with household chores and take care of the children.

The middle class at the turn of the century participated in the cult of the woman. A woman’s first responsibility was to her husband - keeping him comfortable, keeping his home comfortable. This often left children to fend for themselves. This was repeated in the 1950s - women had more conviences and more time to spend with their children, but raising their children was often seen as secondary to keeping the husband happy. The cult of the child we are now in began developing in the 1960s - and is, to some extent, a result of the feminist movement that said a woman is independant of her husband. Women used to stay at home with the goals of taking care of husband, home, then children - note they were called “Housewives”. We’ve now moved to a world of “stay at home moms” whose first responsibility is their children, second responsibilty is the dishes, and the hubby comes last.

In a traditional farm ecomony, everyone works at home, so the children are with their parents, but everyone WORKS. There is no situation that we now see with a SAHM who has time to give a lot of quality time.

Remember that historically speaking a woman pre WWII had no “modern conviences” She beat her rugs, did her laundry with tools I’d consider primative, baked her own bread, canned her own beans, and often sewed the families clothes. It doesn’t leave time for the idyllic view of traditional childhood we hold, Mommy may have been home, but the quality time was limited.

Even in the 1950s that we so often idealize, many women worked outside the home (I’d be giving stats from memory, but I believe its in the 30% range). Poor women, black women, widows - these women have always needed to work.

But that is historical. Today is a different story - but Cranky is right. The populations are - to an extent - self selecting - especially where you are talking about the segment of the population that has a choice - instead of the parents who don’t have a choice but to work - either because neither of them makes a good enough income to remain middle class with a single job or because there is only one parent. “Aggression” is hard to measure (and may not be a bad thing - I’d rather have an aggressive kid than a doormat). Likewise, we can speak to an increased stress measurement, but can’t speak to it outcome without long term studies.

There is an additional factor that never gets put in…in our current world most people can expect to go through a period of unemployement. Having two incomes in a household can mitigate the risk of one parent losing a job. Stressful as daycare is, going through a parents job loss is no picnic for children - even young ones that pick up on a parent’s stresses - either.

Ancedotally, in my neighborhood my kids would be very lonely if I were a SAHM - nearly everyone in the neighborhood sends their kids to daycare. If we take a week vacation and hang at home, my kids are bored - nothing to do, no one to play with. That’s not even speaking to my own incompetence as a SAHM - I’m not the fingerpaint type and my kids spend far too much time in front of the TV.

Another personal anecdote here. I was lucky enough to have a stay-at-home Mom. (She went to work part-time as a teacher when I was in 3rd grade, but she was always there when I got home from school & during the summer up until I hit Junior High.)

Of course she didn’t “interact” with us all day long. She had her own activities, like housework, talking on the phone with friends, watching her soaps, doing hobbies like making stained glass or flower arrangements.

And I was a busy kid, too. Lots of neighborhood friends & my sister to play with. Riding bikes, playing with dolls, building forts in the greenbelt behind the house.

Mom & I could go for hours without seeing each other. But…

If I fell of my skates and scraped a knee, I could run in the house and Mom would be there to kiss it and make it better. If the neighborhood bully picked on me and my friends, Mom was there to comfort me and advise me how to best deal with the problem. I can remember getting off the school bus and running home as fast as I could to tell my Mom all about the exciting things I had done and learned that day.

I can’t imagine what my life would have been like if I hadn’t had that. If I had to run to a stranger to bandage up a scraped knee. If I had to learn how to deal with bullies completely on my own. If I had to wait several hours to tell someone who cared about my day.

Of course I understand that for some people there is no other choice besides daycare, and I don’t think that means the kid is going to suffer torture or necessarily turn out warped if they are put in daycare. But IMHO, a stay-at-home parent is the best option if you can afford it, and I’m planning on being a SAHM when I have kids.

I never read these studies. I don’t read the ones on spanking, either. Why? Well, because I think there are a lot of different ways to raise kids and most ways work out fine. Kids are pretty resilient, really – barring out-and-out abuse or neglect there isn’t much you can do to really screw one up.

Now, me, I stayed home. My husband had a high-pressure job with a lot of enforced absences (career military), we had two little ones close together in age (10 1/2 months apart) and our second child was disabled with special needs. I am not an especially ambitious person and I didn’t have a drive to work at a career. I’ve always been a big reader and I kept that up when my kids were small – I’ve always read the newspaper every day and as many as 10 books a week in addition to the paper, so I’ve never felt stagnant or “trapped at home.” The work I do as a housewife – while variable – isn’t especially ardous. And I make my own schedule. I’ve always considered it to be a pretty good gig. I had a very happy childhood, BTW, with a mom who stayed home. My husband, on the other hand, had a much less happy childhood with a mom who worked. Her working wasn’t the sole cause of the unhappiness in their home, of course, but it was also my husband’s preference that I stay home. We were fortunate enough to be able for me to afford to do so, although, especially in the early days, it meant some financial sacrifices had to be made. All these things combined so that the stay-at-home choice was the best fit for me and my family.

But – and this is an important but – not all families have the same priorities we had. Not all women are as happy staying at home as I have been. And, certainly, not all families can afford for one partner to stay at home. Each family has to make the choices that are best for them. When it comes to families one size does not fit all. No matter what Dr. Laura says.

BTW, I always call myself a ‘housewife’ not a stay-at-home-mom. I take care of the whole house and household – kids, husband and housework. I don’t prioritize things in a set way as above – it isn’t husband, then house, then kids OR kids, then house, then husband. My priorities have always changed according to what needed doing at the time. Sometimes the kids take precedence – especially often when they were little, or when my daughter needs help. Other times, I drop everything to make my husband number 1. Sometimes, everyone has to take care of themselves while I clean up the kitchen or paint the bathroom. One last thing – I always remember to place myself in the hierarchy too. Even when my kids were tiny and we were broke, I remembered to include a little mental-health-for-Mommy time, even if it was just an evening trip to the library. This is how my mom did things too, BTW, and where I learned it.

Why does there need to be “proof” provided that mothers did not have a ton of time to spend with their kids in the olden days? OK, maybe they were not all raised by grandparents, but it seems fairly obvious that basic housework used to be a LOT more time-consuming than it is now. The fact of the matter is that mothers did not have the time (nor was it probably considered normal) to spend the whole day entertaining the kid as they do today.

Did you happen to see the show about the 1900 House? When you’re boiling laundry all day you can’t exactly trot out to the zoo with the kiddies.

The point being, that for all of time (until recently) kids have been cared for during the day by someone other than Mom or Dad. Or they were probably just unattended to most of the day. And none of these generations have suffered greatly because of it.

Daycare can cause kids some stress, but it’s nothing they can’t handle.

Just one more personal anecdote: My mom worked when I was a kid. Yes, I hated it at time because I was shy. I KNOW my stress level was up. But it didn’t damage me in any way. I respect my mom for having a career when women’s lib was just getting started. She was ahead of her time and I love her for that.

A lot of folks don’t have an option to work or not. They have to work. These are not the people we are discussing. For them, staying at home is not an option.

For people who have an option, is it best for the kids to have a parent stay at home?

All the research (and this most recent study is just the latest in a long line) says that yes, it is best for the kids if a parent stays home while they are little.

What is there to debate?

but autz, you cannot predict an individual outcome from statistics. As a population whole, if all kids were raised at home vs. if all kids went to daycare, society would be better if all kids were raised at home. But population cannot be extrapolated to individuals. A single INDIVIDUAL may do better at daycare. The best outcome is to optimize to benefit the individual child. And because of the self selection Cranky discussed, we can’t even say FOR SURE that we’d be better off if women with a choice all stayed home. Some of us would make crummy SAHMs. Some of us would cross the line to abusive if we were SAHMs. Quality daycare vs. abusive parent — I’ll stick with quality daycare.

And the studies are controversial with mixed results: If you break it out by gender, girls with mothers who work in REWARDING jobs outside the home do better (get into less trouble, have better grades, etc) than girls whose mothers stay at home or girls whose mothers work outside the home in jobs that mom doesn’t find challenging (see Koontz book for cite). And those moms are the ones that are most likely to have their kids in quality daycare - where the outcomes improve significantly in these studies.

Oreo, I know few working parents who leave their children in the care of strangers. My daughter has had the same teacher all year, and some of the teachers that were in her center when she was a baby are still around. Miss Melanie and Miss Kelly are adored by my children, and do a darn good job at kissing skinned knees and taking care of bullies. Is it the same as it would be coming from me - no, in all honesty, its probably better - I’m not the best “small child” mom in the world and if they don’t require stitches, am not the worlds best provider of childhood empathy. I know women who have left their children with the same home provider for years - she (its almost always a she, although at my center there are a few male teachers - my kids have a male teacher part time assisting in one room, and my son’s toddler teacher was a guy) practically becomes a member of the family. A friends mom did daycare for years and every year had a Christmas party where the kids she used to have would come back. She had twenty year olds show up to her Christmas party - I wouldn’t say she was a stranger.

Jess, yep, individuals will vary. I was speaking “socialogically.” If you look at issues of Good Housekeeping in the 1950s and look at them today and do statistical comparisions on the types of articles (I can’t find a cite for this, but I know its been done), the priorities (at least of the magazine editors) have changed over time. Or if you look at the amount of time a non-working-outside-the-home mom spends with her children, on housework, on herself for those periods, the amount of time she spends with her children, statistically, has gone up - but once again, populations are NOT individuals.

Statements like this are very frustrating for parents like me, because they are almost insulting.

You have a misunderstanding of how day care works. Most parents who work do not put their children in the care of “strangers.” Those providers don’t fail to offer protection from bullies, and they certainly do care how a child’s day is going.

My son is so deeply bonded with his first caregiver, Fran, that he calls her Grammy and her husband Grampy. He has recently moved to a daycare center, but we find we have to make return visits to see Grammy Fran briefly every week, because he misses her. He is building similar bonds with his family group leader at his current daycare and with the other teachers in his room. We just went to a picnic this week so that we had a chance to meet their families and get to know them outside of the center.

I know a lot of working parents, and all of them did a lot of research and chose a daycare provider with considerable care. I don’t know any parents who would put up with the sort of alternative to a SAHM mom situation that you are describing, one where a child is treated with such indifference.

Cranky, I apologize. I absolutely didn’t mean to insult anyone. I shouldn’t have used the word “strangers,” and I don’t believe parents who put their kids in daycare are bad parents, or that they don’t love their kids. Or that all daycares are unloving, indifferent environments.

I guess the word strangers came to me because when I was a kid, Mom & Dad were the only central adult figures in my life. Even my grandparents, aunts & uncles, friends of the family, etc., came secondary to them. I had teachers I loved & adored as a small child, but they couldn’t hold a candle to my parents.

I should have said I couldn’t imagine going to somebody “other than Mom (or Dad)” for those things. That’s for me, personally, because that was who I was bonded to.

I do realize that other kids have those bonded & close relationships with adults other than their parents.

All I’m saying is that when I have kids, I want to be that central person in my kid’s life. I don’t want anybody else (except hubby) kissing knees and wiping away tears. I think that will be best for MY kids.

YMMV, of course. Each family, each kid, each parent is different. Do I generally believe a stay-at-home parent is a better option than not? Well, yes, in most cases. There are always exceptions to every rule. But I also don’t believe that putting a kid in daycare is necessarily always bad. Just maybe not quite as good.

As long as you (you in the general sense, not you specifically, Cranky) are truly doing what you believe is in your kid’s best interest and not your own, I believe everything will turn out okay.

Really? You can’t imagine a woman baking a cake while her children are in another roome? Or a parent playing a game, but not enjoying it and just wanting to end? The shopping trip with only the word “no” was a bit of an exagerration. Add a few " Put that bacK" ," Sit down" and "Put that in the cart"s and it’s more realistic.

What I am saying is tha that the current norm for SAHM appears to be child-centered days.The previous norm for “housewives” wasn’t. (and BTW, I didn’t mean that my mother and the other mothers tuned out their children entirely- only that they did not spend most of the day interacting with their children, and that the mere fact that someone is at home is no guarantee that they are spending more actual time with their children than someone who works.) The difference in the norms in probably due in large part to the self-selection of SAHMs- for the most part, SAHM are there because they want to be and not because they didn’t have a choice or didn’t even consider that there could be a choice. The studies showing differences between day care and home care are based on the children of SAHM’s who want to be at home. As far as I know,there have not been any studies of day care vs children in home care with mothers who would prefer not to be at home, but had no choice. Day care might well be the winner in that comparison.