Child care - Mother or Day Care

[IzzyR]

From the NY Times

Researchers conducting the largest long-term study of child care in the United States said today that they had found that children who spend most of their time in child care are three times as likely to exhibit behavioral problems in kindergarten as those who are cared for primarily by their mothers.

The study, whose detailed results have not been published, found a direct correlation between time spent in child care and traits like aggression, defiance and disobedience. In interviews today, two of its lead researchers said the findings held true regardless of the type or quality of care, the sex of the child, the family’s socioeconomic status or whether mothers themselves provided sensitive care.

"As time goes up, so do behavior problems,"said Dr. Jay Belsky, one of the study’s principal investigators.

Dr. Belsky said children who spent more than 30 hours a week in child care “are more demanding, more noncompliant, and they are more aggressive.” He added, “They scored higher on things like gets in lots of fights, cruelty, bullying, meanness, as well as talking too much, demands must be met immediately.”

The research, financed by the National Institute on Child Health and Human Development, a branch of the National Institutes of Health, has not undergone the rigorous scientific evaluation known as peer review. But the long-running study is widely regarded as the most comprehensive examination of child care to date. In 1996, the same group of researchers concluded that using day care centers or baby sitters did not affect infants’ trust in their mothers.

Some experts on work and family life are already questioning the study’s results. Perhaps, said Ellen Galinsky, president of the Families and Work Institute, a nonprofit research organization in New York, “it’s not being in child care that is the problem, it’s that employed parents are tired and stressed.”

And Claudia Wayne, former director of the Center for the Child Care Workforce, a group that advocates improving the quality of child care, suggested that quality might indeed be an issue because most child care was mediocre.

The researchers conducting the study did not have an explanation for why some children in child care might become more aggressive or disobedient. “That is the most pregnant research agenda,” said Dr. Belsky, a developmental psychologist who two years ago left Penn State University, one of the study sites, for the University of London.

But they do have some theories, said Dr. Sarah Friedman, who is coordinating the project for the child health institute. It is possible, she said, that child care providers are not trained to give emotional support. And Ms. Galinsky’s explanation, that parents are overworked, is a plausible one, Dr. Friedman said.

Opinions?

[puddleglum]

I worked in day care for four years and this study makes perfect sense to me. When a child is in a class of ten other children they learn to go after what they want or they don’t get it.

[Jois]

I saw two different news reports on this today and a short presentation on the 10PM news, but I’d like to see what the kids looked like in 3 years and maybe 8 years. Are changes like these forever or do they wear off when kids get into classrooms or get older and have a better understanding of working with others?

It seem sad that the caretakers aren’t teaching the kids how to deal with others and “…are more demanding, more noncompliant, and they are more aggressive.” Just doesn’t sound like a happy child to me.

Jois

[Tranquilis]

Hmmm…

I recall seeing a study that showed that daycare children are more social than non-daycare children. Not that ‘social’ and ‘agressive’ can’t go together, but still…

My little girl is in daycare or preschool about 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, and the only thing she is, is wonderfull. Of course, she’s also unusually big for a 3yo, and far smarter than most people <Insert proud papa grin here>. She is frequently mistaken for a 6yo. That may have something to do with it, or maybe the preschool she attends has a lot to do with it: Montessori, you know. Come to think of it, every kid at that school is pretty well behaved. Hmm…

I wonder if the authors of the study in the OP looked at Montessori programs.

[Kallessa]

Shouldn’t this be Mother and/or Father or Day Care? Or did you mean to imply that fathers would be even less able to nurture their children than day care centers? Regardless of whether children are better or worse off spending time in day care, the altenative isn’t just having mother care for the child. Dad has just as much of a right to stay home and look after baby, and it’s time we stop denying men this opportunity. So, shape the debate in terms of parents, rather than just mothers, and acknowledge a father’s right to participate. That’s a much more sensible place to begin

[IzzyR]

Here’s my best guess. Children who stay at home with their mothers (or fathers, for Kallessa) get less structured play and education, but more love. A day care worker most likely enjoys and likes children, but will not love a child in the manner that their parents do. The atmosphere in a day care center is likely more intellectually stimulating but less warm emotionally. This may account for the differences observed, in both the positive (short term memory, vocabulary) and negative (behavioral) aspects of day care.

[Dangerosa]

I don’t know about this study, but studies like this tend to find what they are looking for. Conservatives find daycare is horrible. Liberals find good socialization, school readiness, etc.

There are so many variables that its easy to cook studies like this. Like quality of daycare, socio-economic status of families, whether mom and dad like their jobs (a big factor, according to one study) and present work as a positive to their kids.

My kids are daycare kids (1 1/2 and 2 1/2) and are not aggressive (and, from the lack of biting reports I get, there aren’t many aggressive kids in their daycare), fairly well socialized for their age (they play the way they are suppose to and have the attention spans expected at that age). Then again, they have high quality daycare, our socio-economic status is good, and both their parents like what they do for a living - exactly the kids that are expected to do well in daycare - but also exactly the kids that are expected to do well at home.

[Odesio]

*Originally posted by Dangerosa *
**I don’t know about this study, but studies like this tend to find what they are looking for. Conservatives find daycare is horrible. Liberals find good socialization, school readiness, etc.

**

But this same research group apparantly found that daycare and babysitters don’t affect the trust an infant has in their parents. Doesn’t sound to me like they automatically wanted to badmouth daycare. On the other hand we’ve heard for years now that it is ok to leave your kid at daycare for many hours every week. Personally I don’t think someone is fulfilling their parental obligations but that’s just my opinion.

**
There are so many variables that its easy to cook studies like this. Like quality of daycare, socio-economic status of families, whether mom and dad like their jobs (a big factor, according to one study) and present work as a positive to their kids.

**

I agree, which is why I’ve got an automatic distrust of all such studies I see. Unless I can see exactly how they got their data and interpreted it how can I know they’re correct?

originally posted by Kellessa**
Shouldn’t this be Mother and/or Father or Day Care? Or did you mean to imply that fathers would be even less able to nurture their children than day care centers?

**

Yes it should be. But when I was a kid and had a boo boo I thought of going to my mother before I went to my father. It is unfair that a lot of the blame goes towards mothers when fathers are just as responsible for their children. On the other hand there are plenty who don’t feel a father is all that necessary.

Originally said by IzzyR**
The atmosphere in a day care center is likely more intellectually stimulating but less warm emotionally. This may account for the differences observed, in both the positive (short term memory, vocabulary) and negative (behavioral) aspects of day care.

**

So far as I know daycare is not the same as preschool so I’m not all that convinced that your mentally stimulating theory is true. The mission of preschool is to prepare children for elementary school while the mission of daycare is to, well, care for the kids when the parents cannot. I don’t know if the study makes a difference between preschool and daycare but it seems to me that they’d have to.

I suppose there’s a lot of factors which can contribute to the state of a child’s well being. But if you’re leaving your kid somewhere for 8-10 hours a day then who’s raising them? Are you confident that the daycare employees are raising your child according to the values that you and your spouse share?

Marc

[Tranquilis]

*Originally posted by MGibson *
**Personally I don’t think someone is fulfilling their parental obligations but that’s just my opinion. **

This is a hot-button topic. The WM (Working Mothers) vs. SAHM (Stay At Home Mothers) wars have been going on a long time, and are quite bloody. IMHO, as long as your child is developing to your expectations, there’s not much to recommend one style over the other. I know my child is happy, well loved, and moving right a long at a rockin’ pace.
**

originally posted by Kellessa**
Shouldn’t this be Mother and/or Father or Day Care? …

**

Yes it should be. But when I was a kid and had a boo boo I thought of going to my mother before I went to my father. It is unfair that a lot of the blame goes towards mothers when fathers are just as responsible for their children. On the other hand there are plenty who don’t feel a father is all that necessary. **

My girl comes to me for emotional hurts, but goes to my wife for physical ouchies. Kids’ll go to the parent that gives them what they want/need, regardless.

**

So far as I know daycare is not the same as preschool so I’m not all that convinced that your mentally stimulating theory is true. The mission of preschool is to prepare children for elementary school while the mission of daycare is to, well, care for the kids when the parents cannot. I don’t know if the study makes a difference between preschool and daycare but it seems to me that they’d have to. **

I don’t know what daycare centers you’ve seen, but every one I’ve ever seen has programmed activities for the kids, as appropriate for age/development. Some are better than others, but they were always there. That’s one of the reasons my 3yo is in preschool with 5yo and 6yo kids: She’d gone so far beyond the daycare programs, that they had nothing left for her to do.

**

I suppose there’s a lot of factors which can contribute to the state of a child’s well being. But if you’re leaving your kid somewhere for 8-10 hours a day then who’s raising them? Are you confident that the daycare employees are raising your child according to the values that you and your spouse share? **

This goes back to the WM v. SAHM bit. It’s every parents God-given responsibility to follow-up on this. Fail to do so, and you’re a fisrt-rate loser, maybe even guilty of abuse, but if you do follow-up, and everything is to your satisfaction, then follow your conscience.

[Odesio]

*Originally posted by Tranquilis *
**

This is a hot-button topic. The WM (Working Mothers) vs. SAHM (Stay At Home Mothers) wars have been going on a long time, and are quite bloody. IMHO, as long as your child is developing to your expectations, there’s not much to recommend one style over the other. I know my child is happy, well loved, and moving right a long at a rockin’ pace.

**

I think we’ve got to recognize that some parents have rather low expectations. So just because a child is meeting the expectations of the parent doesn’t necessarily mean it is such a great thing. we’ve also got to consider that parents aren’t always the most objective individuals when it comes to how well their child is doing.

On the other hand, your (generic you not specific you) child is an individual not a statistic. If something isn’t “good” for most children doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be good for yours.

**
I don’t know what daycare centers you’ve seen, but every one I’ve ever seen has programmed activities for the kids, as appropriate for age/development. Some are better than others, but they were always there.

**

Programmed activities doesn’t always equal education, does it? I’m not convinced that most daycares provide a decent education since that’s not really their job.

**
That’s one of the reasons my 3yo is in preschool with 5yo and 6yo kids: She’d gone so far beyond the daycare programs, that they had nothing left for her to do.

**

Why would a 5 or 6 year old be in preschool? If your 3 year old is keeping up with kids twice her age maybe she’s some sort of genius.

Marc

[Tranquilis]

*Originally posted by MGibson *
**
I think we’ve got to recognize that some parents have rather low expectations. So just because a child is meeting the expectations of the parent doesn’t necessarily mean it is such a great thing. we’ve also got to consider that parents aren’t always the most objective individuals when it comes to how well their child is doing.

On the other hand, your (generic you not specific you) child is an individual not a statistic. If something isn’t “good” for most children doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be good for yours. **

Point, but now we start getting into some seriously grey areas: Who gets to decode what the ‘standard’ is? Short of coercive social interferance, we’re going to have to accept a wide range of interpretations here.

**
Programmed activities doesn’t always equal education, does it? I’m not convinced that most daycares provide a decent education since that’s not really their job.

**

For children of a young age, play is education. Provide the right play oportunities, and they will teach themselves. It’s later in a child’s development that ‘education’ becomes something requiring assistance.

**
Why would a 5 or 6 year old be in preschool? If your 3 year old is keeping up with kids twice her age maybe she’s some sort of genius. **

Montessori programs group kids in age-ranges, so that the older kids help bring the younger ones along. My girl (and her cousin) are in age groups beyond their years because they’re exceptionally capable, both socially and intellectually. Maybe she’s a genius, maybe not (I think maybe: She’s smarter than me, and I’m no dummy), but she is certainly in the right group (late pre-school & kindegarden): She and her cousin are a pair of little pop stars at an school filled with great kids. They own that place. Parental pride not withstanding, there are about 80 kids in that school, her age and younger, and not a bad egg in the lot.

[Gundy]

My son began daycare at age 2 1/2, when I began working full time (I’m a single working mom). He’s now in 1st grade, and because I work, he has an afterschool program that he attends until I can pick him up. While I would love to be home to greet him when he gets off the school bus, I just can’t be. I have to pay the rent, and no part-time job is going to pay for a two-bedroom in Chicago. With the exception of one weekend evening with my SO, any time away from work I spend with him. I refuse to work overtime (to my financial detriment) because I guard my personal time so jealously.

So when I read reports of the study, I braced myself for the worst. Every time something like this comes out I feel a wave of guilt for the choices I’ve made. I chose to have sex at 17. I chose to keep the child when I knew the father was unreliable. I chose to work rather than subsist on the public dime. Every step of this was hard, and it keeps on being hard. Sometimes it feels that everything is geared against me responsibly raising him on my own.

And then, stuff like this. I’m certainly not saying such investigations are not worthwhile or necessary; hey, study away. It’s important to know the truth about this. It just drives me absolutely bonkers when it gives someone the opportunity to tell me everything they think I’m doing wrong. I have to wonder, are good daycare programs so scarce because we’re constantly told it’s bad, bad, bad, and you’re a bad parent if you do it?

My kid is a good kid. He’s bright, he does well in school, his teachers love him, he makes friends easily, and while yes, he does have behavioral issues (table manners spring to mind), I believe that they’re those of a typical 7-year-old boy. I have no misconceptions about him - he’s not perfect, but he is a good kid. So all in all, up to this point, I think I’m doing pretty well. I’m really tired of being torn down every day because I don’t do things the way other people think they ought to be done; I’m really tired of being judged because there are SOME irresponsible working parents; I’m really tired of people getting in my face about my choices because they’re so smug after reading stuff like this.

MGibson wrote:

**Personally I don’t think someone is fulfilling their parental obligations but that’s just my opinion.

**

You’re certainly entitled to that opinion. You raise your children your way, and I’ll raise mine my way. But don’t tell me I’m not fulfilling my parental obligations because I have to work. You (the general, not specific) have no idea what my life is like, what kind of parent I am, or what my kid’s like. Why does it always come down to “my way is better than your way”?

[Kimstu]

MGibson wrote: “Personally I don’t think someone [using early childhood daycare] is fulfilling their parental obligations but that’s just my opinion.”

Hmmm, but you do think a parent is fulfilling his or her obligations by letting the school take the kids off his/her hands once they’re five or six years old? Why do you think it’s an “obligation” for a parent to be with a child pretty much all day, every day at age three but not at age six? There are other cultures where six would be considered far too young to remove a child from the constant supervision and company of his/her own family. Are you sure you’re not just mindlessly assuming that the way you’re used to things being is the natural way for them to be?

(And Gundy: you should definitely not be feeling guilty. Sounds like you’re doing a terrific job.)

[Tranquilis]

*Originally posted by Kimstu *
**(And Gundy: you should definitely not be feeling guilty. Sounds like you’re doing a terrific job.) **

Big endorsement on that from me!

My wife and I came to parenthood in our late 20s/early 30s, when we were well established and had plenty of resources to hand. I can imagine doing it the way you’re forced to, and it scares me stupid!

You (and all your siblings-in-adversity) have my utmost respect and sympathy.

[Gundy]

Thanks a ton, Kimstu and Tranquilis. Particularly coming from y’all, the support means a lot. Obviously this is an emotionally charged subject for me (and others in my situation, I’m sure). I just wish people would realize that many, many working parents are not working to support extravagant lifestyles and so choose to dump their kids off for ten hours a day. Some of us need quality, affordable day care just to survive. I don’t think I deserve special treatment or consideration - after all, I did choose to have him, knowing full well the consequences - but I could do without the assumptions, judgment and criticism.

Whoo! Got that off my chest. Anyhoo…

I think Kimstu raises a very salient point. From age 6 on, kids are in school full time. My son attends a magnet school to which he is bussed, so he’s out of the house by 7:30 a.m. and not back until 3 p.m. That’s practically a full-time job there. So even for stay-at-home parents (with the exception of homeschoolers, of course), their kids are in someone else’s hands for a good chunk of the day. This is when kids are just beginning to understand the difference between right and wrong, morals, etc. So they’re getting much of this social training from their teachers, not the parents. Is that fulfilling the parental obligation?

[Moirai]

Gundy, you rock!

As far as MGibson’s comments go, I don’t know him personally so I don’t want to specualte on his situation. I hope he at least has raised a kid or two, considering his strong opinions. But I have to say that it seems more & more like a fantasy, Donna Reed-type existence when only the husband goes out and kills the mastadon every day, and wifey raises the kids & cooks up said mastadon every night in her pearls & twin-set.

My husband & I never planned for me to work after he passed the Bar. I wanted to stay home, barefoot & pregnant, as I had been working since I was in high school. Well, guess what? There was another plan, apparently, because we both still work our asses off and my son is 18 months old now.

We have a GREAT set-up, maybe the best under the circumstances. We both work out of a home office, upstairs. I have a nanny/sitter who comes 4 days a week and keeps Zack downstairs. So, we always know where he is, we can see him (or spy on them, whatever) whenever we want, and we don’t have to drop him off somewhere where the staff could change anytime. The nanny loves him and he loves her. Until I can quit working, this is the best alternative.

Don’t assume that parents who have their kids in daycare want it that way because they are selfish, unworthy and cruel. I believe paying the rent and buying food still count as parental responsibilities, so I guess they might be somewhat of a priority…

:rolleyes:

[Odesio]

*Originally posted by Tranquilis *
**

Point, but now we start getting into some seriously grey areas: Who gets to decode what the ‘standard’ is? Short of coercive social interferance, we’re going to have to accept a wide range of interpretations here.

**

Well I’m going to go by my standards just as you’ll go by yours. No coercive social interference necessary since I’m not interested in changing anyone’s point of view through legislation.

**
For children of a young age, play is education. Provide the right play oportunities, and they will teach themselves. It’s later in a child’s development that ‘education’ becomes something requiring assistance.

**

I’ll agree that play is learning. But if we’re going to use that broad a definition of education then I don’t think it ends up being a very useful definition.

Marc

[Odesio]

*Originally posted by Gundy *
**

So when I read reports of the study, I braced myself for the worst. Every time something like this comes out I feel a wave of guilt for the choices I’ve made.

**

Well so far as I know the studies aren’t designed to make you feel guilty. So any guilt you’re feeling is based entirely on your own values.

**
I chose to have sex at 17. I chose to keep the child when I knew the father was unreliable. I chose to work rather than subsist on the public dime. Every step of this was hard, and it keeps on being hard. Sometimes it feels that everything is geared against me responsibly raising him on my own.

**

I still feel guilty about some of the things I did when I was younger. I don’t know if guilt ever totally goes away but you do your best to push through it and make things right.

**
And then, stuff like this. I’m certainly not saying such investigations are not worthwhile or necessary; hey, study away. It’s important to know the truth about this. It just drives me absolutely bonkers when it gives someone the opportunity to tell me everything they think I’m doing wrong.

**

I don’t know you so I can’t make any specific comments about you. I realize that in all our lives sometimes stuff happens regardless of our best intentions. So I don’t mean to paint a blanket and say every kid in daycare has a horrible parent.

But I won’t back down from what I said. Yes, if someone puts their kid in daycare for 10 hours a day then they are not fulfilling their parental obligations. That is of course according to my own system of values and I’m sure others will disagree.

**
I have to wonder, are good daycare programs so scarce because we’re constantly told it’s bad, bad, bad, and you’re a bad parent if you do it?

**

I doubt it. If anything we’ve been told that daycare is great for many years now. I’ve heard supporters praise it as being a place where children become better adjusted socially and smarter. Maybe that’s true.

**
I’m really tired of being judged because there are SOME irresponsible working parents; I’m really tired of people getting in my face about my choices because they’re so smug after reading stuff like this.

**

Nobody here is getting in your face.

**
You’re certainly entitled to that opinion. You raise your children your way, and I’ll raise mine my way. But don’t tell me I’m not fulfilling my parental obligations because I have to work.

**

I’ll certainly voice whatever opinion I think is valid.

Marc

[Odesio]

*Originally posted by Kimstu *
**

MGibson wrote: “Personally I don’t think someone [using early childhood daycare] is fulfilling their parental obligations but that’s just my opinion.”

Hmmm, but you do think a parent is fulfilling his or her obligations by letting the school take the kids off his/her hands once they’re five or six years old? Why do you think it’s an “obligation” for a parent to be with a child pretty much all day, every day at age three but not at age six? There are other cultures where six would be considered far too young to remove a child from the constant supervision and company of his/her own family. Are you sure you’re not just mindlessly assuming that the way you’re used to things being is the natural way for them to be?

**

Yes, excuse me for not basing my values on what other cultures might do. Shame on me for not being culturally sensitive.

I think the first 3-4 years of a child’s life is when you have the greatest impact on their lives. I don’t think you’ve got to literally be with the child every second of every day but spend 50 hours a week in daycare is a bit much in my opinion.

Why would someone have a kid only to put them in daycare for 50+ hours a week?

Marc

[even_sven]

Children need love.

If that love comes from constant attention or if that love comes after a long day at day care…love is love.

And frankly for most of human history children have been raised up in situations a lot worse than a little bit of day care. How about the people that used to hire nannys for their kids full time (until they were old enough for boarding school that is) and only saw their kids at supper? How about kids that are put to work as soon as they can walk? How about old fashioned orphanages? How about roaming the streets?

I just finished reading Angela’s Ashes today…that is the story of one hard childhood. Try compareing that to a few hours a day hanging out with your friends playing with tinker toys.

We have no place judgeing people that put their kids in day care. And we certainly have no right to say that they do not love or care for or deserve their kids. It’s a big mean world out there and we all can’t be Donna Reed. Just because you can doesn’t mean you have the right to look down your nose at others.