I can live with agreeing to disagree, Rysdad. And seriously, if you really are getting buttfucked on the child support, talk to a good family law attorney. Consultation alone won’t cost that despicably much on the grand scale, and if you wait until it’s patently clear that something needs to be adjusted under existing law, you stand an excellent chance of getting a modification. But do recognize that the law is quite settled against taking into account a new spouse’s income when setting support. Unless you can convince your legislature to change that rule, you’re not going to get anywhere with those arguments in court, as you’ve probably realized by now.
dewt, you and I got no truce, you ignorant slut. I am most definitely not a “crusader” on this issue, although I obviously have some strongly-held opinions. But those opinions are also very well informed, especially on matters of law and policy.
You got a complaint about my position? Fine. Ask me a question and I’ll explain it to you in the smallest words I can think of. Otherwise, take your empty, selfish, knee-jerk rhetoric back to your FACT meeting, where you and your sexually frustrated drinkin’ buddies can sit around bitching about what complete cunts your ex-wives are without getting a goddamned thing accomplished.
I will not stoop to name calling…
I will not stoop to name calling…
yes I will. you are a fucking moron who knows nothing about the life Dewt lives…how DARE you .
you know not the nightmare this man has to endure…the quest this woman has to see him dead and buried…or the ruination of his life…or the bankrupty…or the court time, or the arrests he has had to endure…or the huge amounts of support we have paid to her in cash (which of course, she never reported and we now have to pay again) because if we didn’t, we did not get to see dewt’s son…or the physical attacks by her that take place in front of their child…or the months of NO CONTACT because we said something she didn’t like…so, not even a phone call for 4 months…or hearing the ugly rhetoric of hate coming from your 7 year old, knowing where it came from since “she” spewed it yesterday to you on the phone at a decibal level of 576…
you haven’t heard the ex graphically explain how she will evicerate dewt and then drown her own son rather than ** share** custody…her boy is a trophy to her…
she is less than a mother…
or the times we don’t eat so that our 4 yr old can…while Ms. ex and the elder mini-dewt (he is 9) are ordering in dinner…
** Dewt ** has me…he is not sexually frustrated…
** Dewt ** does not consume alcohol, so go take your unfounded insults and accusations, and shove them so fucking far up your own ass that someone kissing you will wonder what that is at the back of your throat…
knee-jerk is my reaction to your post…I haven’t even read this whole thread (perhaps an error on my part) which I don’t usually do…but man, you have got me pissed off…
when you have lived the life we have for the past 6 years…come back and THEN come talk to me you scabby-assed fuck-head.
Yes, Dylan, and dewt knows nothing about my intelligence. He disagrees with my position? Fine. He calls me ignorant? I most definitely take exception to that. I had not addressed one damn word to dewt or his situation when I get this:
So tell your boy to either drop the unfounded personal insults or expect more of same in reply.
Before I get into this, minty, I want to thank you and second the advice given to kelli. And kelli, if you need a lead on legal resources in Canada, contact me and I point you in the right direction.
Hey everybody… [snicker]
A student lawyer is calling me an ignorant slut.
[snicker]
No truce is fine with me. You can claim you are not a crusader all you want. It doesn’t fly with me after reading some of the crap you’ve spewed here.
Like:
when asked by Rysdad, "So, why do some parents become “deadbeats?”
you reply:
And you’re calling me ignorant?
:: ring ring ::
hello?
Hey kettle, this is pot. You’re black.
Thank goodness you retracted this one. It would have made my job here even easier.
Still, I have to ask myself, what kind of idiot comes up with this sort of excrement in the first place. Freedom indeed.
Oh yeah, real effective. Unfortunately it’s illegal to print up money. One of the judges I’ve been before was obviously clued out to this when he ordered child support payments that were more than 4x my entire income.
And before you go off half cocked telling me how I should have done better in court, go peruse some of the links I’ve provided. Obviously I’m not alone.
I see. Your overriding concern. Hmmmm. Me being in jail would do my son a world of good. Obviously that’s solution. It’s reassuring to know there are lawyers like you looking out for his welfare.
Regarding sexual discrimination:
Oh well fuck, there ya have it. Do away with the discriminatory laws and eradicate discrimination. Nice fucking solution. I’m glad things are so simple for you. The sad fact is that it may not be a legal presumption, but it most certainly is still a social presumption within the legal community.
As for it being a different issue, go back and read the OP. It’s a rant about how the term ‘deadbeat dad’ is bandied about like some fucking banner by crusaders like you. If you missed the points in my previous posts, I can reiterate. The main problem is not that “men have vindictive attitudes towards their former spouses, and don’t give a rat’s ass about their children”, it’s that men are being dragged through the system without a hope in hell of getting a fair shake. Most deadbeats don’t pay because they simply can’t.
er…
I do have a question.
How do you get your big fat head so far up your ass without pulling something? Just curious.
As for your intelligence, you’re right. I do know nothing about it. You haven’t given me anything so far upon which to base an opinion of your intelligence. And anyway, it’s not your intelligence I’m concerned about. It’s your ignorance. Your ‘strongly held opinions’ are pretty obvious - I’m just of the opinion that strongly held opinions should be based on a thorough understanding of the topic. Something which you clearly do not have.
And you have addressed many words to me and my situation. I’m one of those deadbeats that you think should be rotting in jail for the sake of my children.
Go out and get some experience in the real world and then come back and we can discuss this.
I should have known that asking for a discussion instead of an insulting rant from you was a lost cause, dewt.
Did I say one goddamned thing defending a judge who sets someone’s support payments higher than actual income? A: No.
Did I say anything supporting your psychobitch of an ex-wife? A: No.
Did I ever call you a deadbeat, or say that you personally should be rotting in jail? A: No.
Did I say anything at all about you or your situation before you slammed me as ignorant? A: No.
So what did I do, other than raise my voice to defend the basic assumptions of the child support system as it exists in the U.S.? Or do you simply assume that because I hold opinions contrary to your own, I can’t possibly know what I’m talking about?
Do you want to have a legitimate (if occasionally foul-mouthed) discussion of the child support/custody system? I’m quite willing to give it a shot. But if you just want to spit bile all over my screen, I invite you to go stick your dick in the nearest available electrical socket.
Here, I’ll get us started on semi-civilzed discourse: Yes, I absolutely believe there are circumstances when parents who willfully withhold support payments from their children should be tossed in jail. You know, scared straight and all that stuff. As even you acknowledge, there are plenty of divorced parents out there who skip out on child support not because of inability to pay, but because of unwillingness to pay. Let’s see how unwilling they are after they’ve spent a few weekends in the local lock-up.
I don’t understand why anyone would consider 25% of anyting excessive.
When I finally took the X to court as the judge was finishing up he looked at him and said; “You need to work with this woman. You’re a lucky man.” The X said; “I know.” But just a week before that he was swaggering around and running his mouth off about how he was gonna get the judge to let him take one of the kids on his taxes. I laughed of course.
I didn’t take him to court until we’d been apart for almost 6 years. When I left I felt sorry for him in that he was drinking really hard, was too backward to look for a better job, and had never in 17 years we were together worried about a bill. But 6 years later the kids and I had our own house and he was back on his feet with a new woman and had been working at a good job for a year.
That day in court I told the judge that when the kids and I moved from mom’s into the house I had asked him for $75 a week. He paid it a couple of months and then went back to making excuses about bills and garnishments left from when he was unemployed. I didn’t like taking him to court. We could have kept on pinching pennies all the time. But my daughter who was getting older and much more observant stopped going to visit. His girlfriend and her son treated my kids badly. They bought a house with only two bedrooms and my kids had to sleep on the floor in the living room. They weren’t allowed to touch her kids video game unless he gave them permisson. They put in a pond and a new dining room. Her son had several pairs of Nikes and my kids wore Payless shoes and hand-me-downs. My daughter came to hate her father for allowing his, now wife, to make them feel unwelcome. My son still went when his dad felt like fooling with him.
Anyway, that day in court I guess the judge didn’t like my apologetic tone. I know I had one. Everyone told me I was an idiot for not doing it sooner but old habits are hard to break. The last 10 years of our relationship, I was the primary breadwinner. So now 6 years later I knew I made more money than he did so I felt bad. Of course with this new job I really wasn’t sure how much he made. I figured he wasn’t doing so bad since they had a nice car and truck, nicer than mine. They were making improvements to the house. He was always showing me some new piece of stereo equipment or something, yet pleading broke when the kids came over. I used to send them 5 bucks because he wouldn’t spring for a movie rental. (Acutally I still do.)
So, the judge says to me that day; “Look Ms. ____, you don’t have to worry that this won’t be fair. I take your income, I take Mr. ____'s income and I punch in a few figures here then I have this little chart. It tells me what percentage of support you should pay and what percentage of support Mr. ____ should pay. You don’t have to feel guilty because you make more money than he does. These are his children too.” Well, in the end I pay 65% and he pays 35%. Of course that should include everything medical and dental. Which means if I wanted to get technical I could ask him for 35% of my co-payments on medical and prescriptions. I don’t bother. In the end he pays $102.55 a week for two kids. Which he says is $4 cheaper than the last time he had his wages garnished. He also pays through Child Support Enforcement. I didn’t ask, the judge just must have known he would need to do it that way.
That money sure has helped us a lot. I give my kids their allowance out of it, and we use it on groceries. That is now that my daughter is my “babysitter”. At the time it was awarded my daycare was $75.00 a week for the boy, pack a lunch and activities fees.
My daughter still won’t visit him much. He still won’t come to their ballgames unless he absolutely has too. I still sometimes send money with my son for videos, cause he won’t spring for cable. My son is completely brainwashed. He won’t ask his dad for a candybar because; “Daddy doesn’t have any money!” They both still hate the wife, but her son has gotten to be pretty nice to my boy in the last year or two. He’s matured I guess. My son is afraid over there at night since his sister never goes anymore. His dad always crashes by nine or ten and the boy has taken to sitting up with him playing video games. Guess since he’s an only child and more mature he’s figured out this is as close to a real little brother as he’s ever gonna get.
I don’t like to sit here and write this, it hurts. My X husband is an alcoholic, he isn’t an ogre. He’s an uneducated backward, selfish man, he isn’t evil. He’s my childrens father and he hurts them with his indifference. I’d give up the child support and my right arm if things were different for them.
Please keep in mind that I’m coming from a Canadian view point. While some states in the US have actually come a long way on this issue, many of the stories and people I’ve met over the years (and more than half the Fathers Rights groups) are American. And the basic assumptions of the child support system I’m familliar with are draconian and downright damaging, in most cases, to kids (not to mention both parents). I’m not talking about what’s on paper either - I’m talking about what actually happens in court. There’s a wide gap between ‘the law’ and ‘justice’.
Ok, no problem. It’s a biased and bullshit system. It promotes and encourages vindictiveness and ultimately allows for huge injustices with the ultimate victims being the kids.
I still remember my first time in court. I was actually pretty excited about it. I thought, “Ok, here’s a judge who’s going to listen to both sides of the story and come up with something fair and equitable. Phew.” Well. Talk about stomping out ignorance. And I got off ‘easy’ that time.
The thing is, I’m not a vindictive person. Each and every time that I’ve been to court, I’ve specifically avoided using questionable or hard core tactics. It is my belief that two parents can do their job best when they are focused on resolving issues rather than crushing the other person to dust. If my ex had shared my views, perhaps things might have worked out different. But she’s a shark, and hired shark lawyers and they played dirty. And I didn’t. Repeatedly. Here’s where you can legitimately call me an idiot. But if sticking to my values in what is supposed to be a court of justice leads to my demise then what kind of system is that? Certainly not one worth defending.
** I’m quite willing to give it a shot. But if you just want to spit bile all over my screen, I invite you to go stick your dick in the nearest available electrical socket.**
Mmmmmmmmmmmmm… kinky.
Alright. This is where I lose my civility. I think they should be stripped naked, covered in fire ants, dipped in heavy varnish remover and then shot. My problem, and the proverbial chip on my shoulder comes from being grouped with these fuckwads under the term “deadbeat”.
Aye-aye. There are plenty of divorced parents out there who skip out on child support. And sadly many who skip out on the parenting aspects of parenting too. But the sad fact is there are many more out there who are merely considered to be walking wallets.
My experience and research has shown me that real ‘deadbeat dads’ are not a national issue. They are individual issues that need to be resolved individually - not with national initiatives. (kill em all and let god sort them out) Too many men out there are branded with this term when their only crime is fatherhood and the inablility to make tons and tons of money and/or be opportunistic assholes in court.
I agree that not all deadbeats are men, but the vast majority are! The harm this does to everyone is devastating.
(Dewt)
You are outraged about the man who’s living high on the hog and not paying cs? Fine so am I. But open your fucking eyes and think a bit before you go off to war. A little self righteousness may not be a bad thing, but minty, when you mix it with a healthy dose of ignorance it sure sucks.
'scuse me, but who are you bitching at – me or Minty? And if you’re going off on me, would you mind clarifying? For one, I am not “off to war”, and secondly, the stats show that men ditch their children FAR MORE FREQUENTLY than women do. It’s a fact.
And for the record, I never took my ex to court. His unfair child support situation was, “Pay what you can, when you can. Just show an inkling of concern for your offspring.” He never made one payment. Not one. Did the same thing to his daughters’ mother. Don’t friggin’ tell me that the deadbeat dad thing is misrepresentative of the real situation. Most men DO pay – Many men don’t pay – most parents who don’t pay are men. Duh.
Oky-doky. For the above statement and the one below it, I was and still am bitching at you.
Ok. The vast majority of deadbeats are men.
Find me a cite for this please.
Then, when you do, think about it for a second. Does this statistical source mention sexual bias in the courtroom. Does it mention how women traditionally get custody unless the father can prove the the mother is an incompetent, hyper violent psychopath beyond any shadow of a doubt. Keep in mind also that technically I am a deadbeat dad. How many more out there like me? Or am I the only one who got a tough break in court?
Ok. Find me a cite for this too.
When you do, think about it for a second. I’ll tell you one thing. If I wasn’t as dedicated to my son as I am, I’d have walked away a long time ago. I could have walked away when the judge ordered my cs at 4x my income. I could have walked away when I was arrested for assault. I could have walked away when I was denied visitation. Or when I was accused and investigated for sexual misconduct. Or when she threatened my life. Or when she threatened my son’s life. In fact it’s a miracle that I’m still around.
I know my story is a doozy. And not every divorced man goes through everything I went through, but many do. I could never find the words to explain how badly I’ve wanted to just walk away at times. The fact the I haven’t is more related to the fact that my Dad was a certifiable deadbeat and I know how bad a kid really needs his Dad.
Statistics can tell any story you want them too, still I’d like to see if you have any legitimate numbers to back your assertions.
Btw. The statistics in my life are drastically different from what you are quoting. Of all the separated parents I know: 60% of the men are up to date on their payments. 40% are not, though not through lack of trying. Only 1 man I know does not pay or make any effort to see his child. On the other hand, of the dozen or so men that I know personally who have custody, not one gets a penny from his ex-wife in cs. Hmmm.
Your personal stats (of the separated/divorced couples you know) pretty much back up what I’m saying. I’ll try to find the info that backs me up regarding men vs. women deadbeats…gimme a little time. And also for the record, I don’t consider YOU a deadbeat. Yes, maybe technically, but I don’t think anyone here, once they see the evidence, would put you in that category. Unfortunately, many men don’t try (maybe because they feel defeated – maybe because they truly don’t give a shit). I’ll be back with stats.
Thank you, dewt. I’m glad we can discuss this without both of us reverting back to 8th grade.
My first question to you, though, is the same one I asked of Rysdad above: do I read your post to imply that you have been representing yourself in court? If so, I’ve got to think that’s a huge part of your unfavorable outcome right there. If you absolutely have to swim with great whites, don’t leave your shark cage sitting on the dock–unless you really want to bleed. I strongly suggest you hire a reputable, experienced attorney if you want to straighten out this mess.
Now you say that the system “promotes and encourages vindictiveness and ultimately allows for huge injustices.” On the whole, I disagree. In my experience, the vindictiveness is far more a result of the breakdown of the marriage and the battle for physical custody of the kids. Every parent should realize that children need to be provided for no matter whose care they are under. When a court sets an unfairly high amount of child support–and I absolutely stand by my statement above that 25% of net income sounds fair to me, if that’s what it takes–the proper target of scorn is the court, not the other parent or the children. That the obligor’s ire over the payments instead gets directed primarily at the ex-spouse is evidence to me that a lot of child support debtors are merely looking for another excuse to blame the ex-. And that pre-existing vindictive attitude motivates a whole lot of actual deadbeats to stop payments they are otherwise capable of making.
Now if you don’t mind me asking a question about your personal situation: how in the world did your ex-wife manage to present evidence that your income was twelve times what it actually is? (I’m using Rysdad’s one-third figure as a basis for that estimate.) Surely, there had to be some kind of evidence before the judge that you had that much income or other substantial assets?
And also for the record, every legitimate study I’ve ever seen basically confirms what Blondie is saying: that there are far more deadbeat dads than deadbeat moms. Much of this disparity is no doubt due to the simple fact that men, on average, earn considerably more than women. Women are also far more likely to have foregone employment at all when bearing and raising children, with obvious results when they enter the workforce after divorce. Thus, men are far more likely to be tagged for support in the first place, simply because they are statistically more likely to have the money. But even accounting for this, I suspect Blondie is right and that fathers are still more likely to skip out on their children than mothers. I look forward to the results of her research.
I’m still looking for statistics, but I can tell you that in Lake County, IL, they post names and pictures of the deadbeat parents (not just dads). There were no pictures of women. I’m not saying that it’s absolutely accurate, but it IS an indicator. I’ll look for cites over the weekend.
According to this study from 1995, 89% of the custodial parents using the federal child support enforcement system (Title IV-D) are women, compared to 77% of the custodial parents not using the system.
I read an interesting article, the last paragraph I’ll quote:
“On a daily basis throughout the country, under the “winner-take-all” custodial system, the courts interfere with rights of children to have the care and companionship of both parents. This is a violation of individual liberty interests and constitutional rights. The U.S. Supreme Court has on several occasions emphasized the importance of protecting the bond between parent and child, noting in one case that “the companionship, care, custody and management of his or her children” is an interest “far more precious” than any property right. By protecting a child’s right to BOTH parents, custody battles will diminish thereby preserving the emotional and financial resources of the families.”
Again, I have to disagree. Nowhere in America that I know of can the laws regarding custody of children fairly be considered a “winner take all” system. The vast majority of divorcing parents end up splitting custody of the children in some manner, just as you do with the mother of your son. The law is quite clear that unless there is some reason (such as abuse) why a child should be given entirely to the custody of one parent, the best interests of the child require that the child continue to have meaningful contact with both parents.
Obviously, many courts, when deciding these matters themselves instead of rubber-stamping the parents’ own custody arrangement, continue to order that one parent or the other become the primary caretaker (i.e., custodian)of the child. There are psychological and developmental studies out there that actually indicate children benefit from having one parent or the other they can depend on as a “home base” kind of thing, but I’m not a shrink and can’t testify personally. Nevertheless, even giving one parent primary custody is a lot different from a winner take all result.
And with that, minty green bids you all adieu for a couple days.
For all practical purposes, awarding one party sole physical custody is, indeed, winner take all.
Yes, I have joint “legal” custody. That is essentially meaningless.
Um, no. The law defaults to single, sole custody. Joint custody only occurs when both parents agree to it. Now, I know you said “contact,” and not “custody,” but the end result is that one parent is shunted aside when sole physical custody is awarded…thereby lessening contact–most often when there is no evidence of any abuse nor neglect.
Quite wrongly, in my view.
And there are many, many more that indicate that a child’s well-being is enhanced to an equal degree that they have paternal contact.
I remember reading somewhere, I think in The War Against Parents, that non-custodial moms are even less likely to pay the child support they owe than non-custodial dads. The problem isn’t one of evil testosterone-crazed men versus peace-loving vegetarian women, but that out of sight often means out of mind. (And maybe mistakes in family court too; I can’t speak to that, as I have no experience with it.)
