I think the article makes a good point. If Manning had led the team to a tying field goal folks would be fawning over himand calling him clutch. Well he wasn’t clutch, and when you have the ball in your hands and you are paid the big money and you want to be considered one of the greatest then, yes, he choked.
It doesn’t mean he didn’t have a great game. If a golfer plays amazing golf for 71 holes, but then quadruple bogeys the last hole then he choked (Van de Velde). The fact is that Manning is 9-9 all-time in his playoff career, and quite often his team has been the prohibitive favorite and lost. So yes, he choked.
Well, if I wasn’t still mildly hungover and basking in the afterglow of glorious victory, I’d probably have to agree that Brees isn’t a HoFer yet. However, as of 12:58 PM on 2/9/2010, he’s pretty much John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Cowboy Bill Watts, and Superman all rolled into one in my book.
Hey, you know what, I’m not stepping on that for one minute. Enjoy the win.
And who knows? Brees probably still has five good years left. He’ll spend them on a good team with a good coach playing in a mediocre division, and it’s entirely possible that in 2015 or so you’re going to look less like a homer and more like a prophet.
I was unaware golf was a team game or perhaps that football wasn’t. Would Manning have been more clutch if the colts recovered the onside kick or Garcon doesn’t drop a huge pass, or the defense comes up with a turnover at some point in the game?
Manning had a good game. It wasn’t an amazing game, but it was my no means choking. The Saints are a very good team, and saying the colts or Manning choked takes away from their victory.
As for the pantheon.
P Manning: and not by a little bit
Farve: Showed this year how good he is if he even has decent receivers.
Brady: Peak not long enough to compete with the top 2.
Warner: Better than I gave him credit for, but still great seasons in domes with elite receivers isn’t the same as doing it in NE or GB
Mcnabb: Right there with Warner. The difference in environments is startling. If Philly decides he is the problem, they won’t find a better replacement for a very long time.
Brees: as good as anyone right now. Obviously has some catching up on career value.
Rivers
Romo
E Manning
Rotherberger: with that clutch 9/21 for 123 yards and two interceptions game.
Thanks. I’m not a fan of his politics–Watts would call me a liberal, and compared to him, I suppose I am. Am a huge fan of his work as a wrestler/promoter/booker.
Drifting back in the direction of the topic, Watts may have had a small role in the famous “Who Dat!” chant coming to New Orleans. First time I ever heard the chant was at wrestling matches, in support of JYD. “Who dat? Who dat say dey gonna beat that Dog? Who dat? Who Dat?” rocked many an arena around South Louisiana before it was picked up by Saints fans–and there was a large overlap between the Saints fans and wrestling fans back then.
Manning is a GREAT regular season quarterback. But legacies are created in the post-season (for American sports). Unfortunately for him, he’s a choke artist in the playoffs, so he will never be in the category of Montana, Bradshaw, Aikman or Brady. He could elevate himself to likes of Elway if he wins some more, but he won’t ever be in the upper echelon. He’s won a Super Bowl, but really had little to do with that team’s success. They won it all despite Manning, who threw his typical multiple picks in that post-season.
Manning is 9-9 in the postseason. Favre at a similar point in his career was 11-8. He had won more and played in more postseason games.
But, ultimately it’s this: when the game was on the line, Manning failed. It wasn’t just the interception – it was the fact that he gave away the play to the defensive back, and also failed to note the defense was getting ready for it and that there were better options. When the pressure was on, he made a rookie mistake.
It wasn’t all his fault – the coaching was too timid and a couple of balls were dropped, but a great quarterback can overcome those sort of mistakes. Manning did not.
I don’t completely absolve him. But I listed several factors that contributed more to the loss, in my opinion, that Manning’s purported choke job. He did throw the interception and the Saints got him cold and threw him off his game.
I really don’t think it is in the same zipcode as “Fair” to call Manning’s performance a choke job. He had what…two TDs and over 300 yards passing against an underrated Saints defense, and had his team in a position to win or at least tie the game with about three minutes left in the game. The pick did not decide the game…the Colts defense gave up 24 points to the Saints, and that was enough to lose the game even without the pick.
If Manning is guilty of anything, it’s failing to be Superman this time. You don’t always get the storybook ending. Sometimes the other team is just better on a given night.
I know you’re a Saints fan, so I I know you weren’t dogging their offense - and neither will I. I think this is a really descript way to describe how the Saints won - the Colts defense exhibited some weaknesses that were exploited extremely well by Brees and Co. The Colts never came up with a solution for an incredibly overmatched Jennings.
Yeah, blaming Manning here is pretty much nuts. First of all, special teams pretty much decided this game. The Saints’ kicker made three long-ish field goals, while the Colts’ kicker missed one. The onside kick was huge, giving the Saints a free possession which they turned into 7 points. Even huger was the discrepancy in field position, which had mostly to due with kickoff coverage: the Saints average starting field position was the 32, for the Colts it was the 16.
The two teams were pretty much equals over the course of the season, and they played about equally as well on offense and defense in the Super Bowl. There was a big special teams imbalance, though, and that’s not Peyton Manning’s fault.
If I was going to assign blame for the Colts loss, I think the bulk of it goes to the coaching staff. The Saints were better prepared to come out and win this game. It seems to me like the Colts were playing not to lose, rather than playing to win it outright. There’s a huge difference between those two philosophies.
Obviously follks have different definitions of “choke” which means this will never be resolved. To me, and this is just my interpretation, a choke is when the game is on the line you blow i t. Whatever happened before that is irrelevant. That is a choke. Choking is not the same as blame, choking is not the same playing badly, choking is about that moment in a game whhen you need to come through and you don’t.
If you had a 290 into the last frame and roll a gutter ball that is “blowing it.” If someone runs into your lane and deflects the ball that is being stopped Saying the colts blew it on that late drive denies the performance of the 11 men on defense. Saying Manning specifically blew it discredits the performance of another ten.
That isn’t really my problem though. My issue is that choke implies some mental failing. That Manning lacks the toughness, or ability to handle pressure, or whatever else, which is just silly. The Saints and Colts are very good football teams. On this day the Saints were a little better and a little luckier. If they played 10 times I suspect the Colts would win ~6, but maybe more and maybe less. They only played one game though, and either team was fully capable of winning it. Manning, like every quarterback ever to play the game, is a flawed football player. He makes mistakes. This one happened to be in a big spot, and the Saints happened to take advantage. It doesn’t say anything about him other than his football skills aren’t perfect.
Yeah, that’s blatant homerism. It completely discounts everything everyone else has done up to this point. Putting Brees above 10 MVP awards is nothing but short-sightedness. Body of work counts for at least 80% of such a list, and Brees is at the bottom of it. He’s a great QB, but no. There are far too many objective factors that you’re simply throwing out the window, and not one objective factor that you’re bringing to the argument in favor of Brees.
Of every single one of Brees’ career stats, he can claim superiority in TWO of them - Pass Attempts per Game, and Completions per Game. In both, he has the lead over Manning by 0.1. That’s not to say these things are all numbers - but it sure helps to have ONE to hang your hat on.
Well, Brees does have the NFL Record for highest completion percentage in a season, and he recorded a “perfect game” via QB Rating this year. I’ve already conceded he doesn’t have the career numbers to be a HoFer yet, but he’s working on it.
You’re nuts. Roethlisberger has two Super Bowl rings, including last year’s outstanding clutch performance. Romo doesn’t even belong in the conversation, McNabb has never gotten it done with 4 Championship Games to his name… Rivers? It is to laugh.
Your list is an absolute joke. By any objective measure Ben Roethlisberger is a Top-5 quarterback (at least).