Resolved: good guys Tony Dungy & Peyton Manning will never win the big one

Cafe Society
1

Let me start by saying I love Manning, and love Dungy, and think they are two of the class acts in all of sports. But I am now ready to concede after years of heartbreak, that there is a certain something that will make them never hoist the Super Bowl trophy. Sort of like the Arizona Cardinals will never be good no matter who the coach or players are- Dungy and Manning will never win it all, no matter where they play and who they play with.

Pre-Colts, Dungy had great Bucs teams and always, somehow came up short. Yet the year he leaves, Jon Gruden wins a title with pretty much the same team. In college, Manning had great Vols teams and always came up short in big games. The year after he leaves, the Vols win at all with TEE MARTIN at QB, a guy who could barely hang on in the NFL as a thrid stringer for a couple of years.

Sure they are possibly two of the best ever in the regular season, always 14-2, 13-3 or whatever, and Peyton may end up the best with the best stats ever, but he has never won a title- his dad didn’t, and Eli probably won’t either. First it was “all they need is home field advantage in the playoffs”- I heard that for five years- then last year they get it, and still lose. It will always be something that will end their season early. Each final Colt playoff game of the year will end will Peyton throwing his hands up after a pick with that standard Manning look of confusion/disgust/frustration that Eli fancies.

Yesterday’s game was the funniest thing I have seen in a while- the second worst rushing defensive game in the HISTORY of the NFL. But it doesn’t matter- they could have the '86 Bears defense and something would go wrong, as long as Dungy and Manning are out there. I think even the commentators who always say “this is the Colts year” realize- no it isn’t.

2

I dunno. My gut tells me the same thing about Manning, but then again I was saying the same thing about John Elway in the 80s, as he hoisted a completely mediocre team onto his shoulders and took it to three straight Super Bowls (where they were blown out each time). Those who were patient with Elway were rewarded, obviously. I guess Manning either becomes that, or he stays what he is: Dan Marino, possibly the most dominant quarterback never to win a championship.

3

I’m an awful sports picker, and I’m usually pessimistic about my favorite teams. Looking back on this season, it’s surprising it took so long for teams to exploit the Colts’ porous run defense. One wag said he was going to send the horseshoe-hats a case of Immodium, so they could stop the runs. Tony Dungy seems to solve one problem at a time, and the on-the-ground deef seems to be the only one left. Either they’ll fix that, or they’ll watch the Superb Owl on television.

I’ll hope the best, and expect the worst.

4

Well, I don’t know whether they will win it all or not. My humble opinion is that sports are far more subject to the lucky bounce and random good day than we like to think, so their character doesn’t absolutely determine whether they’ll win the big one.

But, I think you could find disagreement about the ‘good guys’ part of it. Remember the press conference after (was it their latest?) playoff defeat?

[QUOTE=Peyton Manning]
I don’t mean to be a bad teammate, but [trashes teammates]
[/QUOTE]
Personally, I find him annoying. I admit without much evidence, it feels to me like he’s whiny, entitled, and uh, has a extremely healthy self-esteem.

As for Dungy, well, it’s clear his family life wasn’t what anyone would have wished for, and whether he could have done things to make it better is undoubtedly a question that tortures him to this day. He has my sympathy, but I’m not sure it makes him a ‘nice guy’.

5

Quercus- good point on Peyton- I had forgotten the times he has whined after a loss, and he always acts like every incompletion is someone else’s fault, like he’s never thrown a bad pass in his life. Even Marvin Harrison was seen sulking earlier this year when he didn’t catch a lot of passes one game. Tony Dungy, on the other hand, is known as being one of the nicest guys in sports, even before the family tragedy.

6

It seems that of late, teams that go to the Superbowl have ‘mediocre’ quarterbacks and and are more reliant on good players in other areas.

Look at the quarterbacks who have been “deemed” best of the best.
Peyton Manning- Never made it to the big one.
Favre- Hasn’t had a bowl visit since 97?
Culpepper, Vick, McNabb- All supposedly destined to be next generation super-quarterbacks have never won the big game.

Then look at the teams who have won Superbowls lately:
Tom Brady- Likes to think he’s one of the best, but the Patriots thrived as a team, not because of Brady.
Brad Johnson- Took the Bucs to the superbowl but now plays average for the Vikings.
Roethlisberger- Not very stellar one year later.
Dilfer, Warner- Household names maybe but not really hall-of-fame quarterbacks.

Gone are the days of the Aikman, Elway, Young type guys leading entire teams to victory.

7

Yep. I had hoped they could do it last year. They’re doing well this year, but after losing their hotshot halfback and not drafting a freakin’ defense, I’m not especially hopeful this year either.

8

Manning is a good QB, from a great family. Yes, he’s had moments of frustration, but you’ll never see his mug shot on the internet like those of so many other players. He ain’t gonna win a Superbowl this year, because his defense sucks. He’ll get one eventually.

On QBs leading their teams to victory, Hampshire sinned against all of football when he forgot to list that skinny kid from Notre Dame that was pretty good…think his name was Montana. And, there is a guy like that active in the NFL today. His name is Brees, and he plays for the Saints…

9

Most Broncos fans will agree that John Elway is (one of, at least) the greatest QB in NFL history, but most will also agree that he’d be one of the greatest QBs to never win the Super Bowl had it not been for Terrell Davis, who rushed for 1,750 and 2,008 yards in the Broncos 1997 and 1998 Super Bowl seasons respectively

No matter how great they are, great quarterbacks can’t win the game by themselves. Elway needed an incredible running back, a HOF-quality offensive line, and a stingy defense as well. Until 1997 and 1998, the Broncos had some of those pieces, but not all of them at the same time.

Unless Peyton Manning’s going to go out and keep the Colts’ run defense from allowing 375 rushing yards (or whatever particular pieces seem to be missing), he’s not going to win a Super Bowl either.

10

If the Colts never create a better defense, then no, Manning won’t win the big one. It has nothing to do with his character and everything to do with the team’s inability to stop the run. If Manning gets the blame for some of their playoff losses, I think he has to get credit for their 9-0 start this year.

The last great offensive team to win the title was the Rams. The recent winners, and most of the historical winners I’m sure, have had stronger defenses than the current Colts team.

11

Manning will probably get a Super Bowl. It’s only a matter of time.

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[QUOTE=Gordon Urquhart]
Most Broncos fans will agree that John Elway is (one of, at least) the greatest QB in NFL history, but most will also agree that he’d be one of the greatest QBs to never win the Super Bowl had it not been for Terrell Davis, who rushed for 1,750 and 2,008 yards in the Broncos 1997 and 1998 Super Bowl seasons respectively

[/QUOTE]

Most Bronco fans know deep down that is true, but they’ll never admit it. Saint John didn’t need any help. All he needed was a center to snap the ball and a couple of mediocre receivers and he’ll win. No coach needed, either - he’d draw the plays up in the dirt. That or just tell them to “go long”.

13

Well I’ve heard that Manning runs the offense and that Dungy pretty much doesn’t do much else. For a renowned “defensive” coach Dungy has been crap.

Character is not the issue, winning is.

14

Tony Dungy seems like a good man, but he’s gotten far too little criticism, considering the lousy job he’s done in Indianapolis.

Yes, I said lousy.

Remember, Tony Dungy had NOTHING to do with building the superb Colt offense. Jim Mora built that, and it was already a powerhouse long before Tony Dungy came to Indianapolis. Jim Mora was fired because he kept getting to Colts to the playoffs, and then losing, largely because the defense was subpar. Colt management decreed that Mora’s accomplishments weren’t good enough, and brought in Dungy to

  1. Fix the Colts’ mediocre defense, and
  2. Get the Colts to the Super Bowl.

Not only has Dungy failed to get the Colts to the Super Bowl, the defense is far WORSE than when he took over. With a defense as leaky as this one, Peyton Manning has to be all but perfect to win each game.

I scoff at the notion that some players are “clutch” or that others can’t win the big one." In my opinion, there’s no such thing as a “clutch” quarterback. Hey, Tom Brady threw a dumb interception into the end zone in the Super Bowl against the Panthers, which nearly gave away the game. Roger Staubach held the career record for fumbles in the Super Bowl. The best players don’t always win every big game they’re in. They can’t. NOBODY does.

15

The NFL has a ridiculously huge hard-on for the Manning family, earned by Archie getting his ass kicked weekly behind that porous Aints line in the 70s. I think Peyton is way overhyped. I don’t think I would mind it as much if I didn’t see him on every freakin’ commercial related to football, but there you go. He’s a huge whiner, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, I guess - he’s always trying to get a call to go his way. He certainly is an excellent quarterback, though. But not so excellent that he can overcome a notoriously weak defense, like some of the aforementioned (esp. Kurt Warner).

I’ve got no time for his less talented younger brother who pouted and sulked his way out of San Diego to the NYG, the classic dysfunctional lockerroom. If he’d sucked it up and headed to Tijuana he would have found himself in a no-pressure situation with one of the greatest backs in the league and heading to the playoffs… instead he is getting dissected daily on the sports pages in the Post. HA!

Elway gets the finger for doing the same thing, and I think his long dry spell before his first ring was some karmic retribution for being a scrub and crying his way out of Baltimore.

Oh, and Dungy? Not getting it done. He’s good right now but not great. Gets 'em close, but is lacking that extra bit. It doesn’t help that Chucky wins a Superbowl with essentially the same team in Tampa Bay.

16

[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow]
I think Peyton is way overhyped.
[/quote]

In what way? His numbers all seem outstanding.

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[QUOTE=Lamar Mundane]
Most Bronco fans know deep down that is true, but they’ll never admit it. Saint John didn’t need any help. All he needed was a center to snap the ball and a couple of mediocre receivers and he’ll win. No coach needed, either - he’d draw the plays up in the dirt. That or just tell them to “go long”.
[/QUOTE]

Sounds to me like the person you are describing is the actual greatest QB who ever lived, Johnny Unitas.

18

I agree that whiner Eli struggling in NYC while the Chargers are kicking ass is too funny. I also forgot that a couple of weeks ago with the Colts down by 3 with a second or two to go, Peyton whining to the official to throw a celebration flag on the Titans who had just kicked the winning field goal. Also agree that Archie had maybe one very good year in the pros, and overall has more INT’s than TD’s, which is a sign of a bad quarterback, regardless how bad the Saints were.

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[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
Pre-Colts, Dungy had great Bucs teams and always, somehow came up short. Yet the year he leaves, Jon Gruden wins a title with pretty much the same team.
[/QUOTE]

But it wasn’t the same team. In addition, Gruden made many moves that turned out to be bad for the long-term future of the Bucs (hence their record the next year).

[QUOTE=WIKI]
Despite the impressive Super Bowl win, there were many people–including players on the Buccaneers like Warren Sapp and a number of sports analysts–who attributed Gruden’s win primarily to the smothering defense that coach Tony Dungy had created during his tenure with the Bucs, ignoring the major revamping that Gruden did on the offensive side of the ball. Nevertheless, Gruden publicly and graciously thanked Dungy for his contributions upon accepting the Lombardi Trophy at the Super Bowl XXXVII postgame ceremony.

In the two years following Gruden’s Super Bowl win, the Bucs went 7-9 and 5-11 respectively, confirming to many Dungy supporters that Gruden simply took over an emerging and strong team from Dungy and then drove it into the ground with the acquisition of aging veterans who could no longer perform. However, the high draft picks sacrificed by the team to acquire Gruden, along with salary cap issues predicated by the now-departed Rich McKay–with whom Gruden had an acrimonious relationship–limited Gruden’s ability to field the teams he wanted after that successful Super Bowl-winning season.
[/QUOTE]

Not to mention that in 2002, they moved to a different division, Philly choked in the playoffs, and they were lucky enough to play the team Gruden coached the year prior in the Superbowl. I give credit to Gruden for picking up Keenan McCardell and Michael Pittman, but let’s not act as if doing those things didn’t come at a price. Gruden put all the eggs in one basket, and it worked. He got extremely lucky. Good for him, but don’t blame Dungy for being less wreckless.

[QUOTE=astorian]
Tony Dungy seems like a good man, but he’s gotten far too little criticism, considering the lousy job he’s done in Indianapolis.

Yes, I said lousy.
[/QUOTE]

Be fair. Most of the time, they have lost to the eventual Superbowl winner in the playoffs. I don’t care how good a coach he is, those teams were on a roll, and there was very little to stop them.

[QUOTE=astorian]
Not only has Dungy failed to get the Colts to the Super Bowl, the defense is far WORSE than when he took over. With a defense as leaky as this one, Peyton Manning has to be all but perfect to win each game.
[/QUOTE]

Colts Defensive Efficiency Ranking :

1999: 29th
2000: 23rd
2001: 30th
2002: 23rd
2003: 15th
2004: 19th
2005: 8th

No, their defense has not gotten worse under Dungy.

20

[QUOTE=brickbacon]

No, their defense has not gotten worse under Dungy.
[/QUOTE]

I’m glad you got to that whopper before I had to go dig up the numbers. Thanks.