Possibly. I’ve looked for him on social media, but his last name is very common.
Many folks have talked well about the possible medical and neurological issues the child could be experiencing. Those things need professional evaluation and help.
But clearly there is much the parents could be doing better. The main one is enforcing meaningful and consistent consequences. It doesn’t need to be physical, and I think the literature still supports the position that physical consequences are often more harmful long-term than they are helpful. But they need to matter to the kid, they should be logical, and they should be enforced immediately and consistently. This takes a lot of preparation up front by the parents to decide what they will be.
For example, before going to a party it should be communicated that any hitting, punching, or destructive behavior and we will leave immediately (this is logical - we are guests and we are uninvited if we hurt the hosts). Any disobedience (i.e. “stop blowing those candles” followed by continued blowing) and we will leave the room for 10 minutes (a little less logical, but can be “I am responsible for your behavior and if you won’t listen we have to leave the room”). For kids that don’t have the underlying medical issues described above (the ones that are just “trained assholes”) they will pretty quickly figure it out.
For a non-parent you have to communicate to the parents the same standards - if your kid destroys something I have to ask him to leave. Which is obviously fraught and very difficult (@pkbites wife notwithstanding).
Unfortunately, the later the parents start the worse it is, since it becomes very hard to enforce consequences on a kid that is strong (physically and willfully) and has had years of no consequences. And once kids become older kids or young adults the natural consequences come on their own (bad grades, detention, loss of friends, arrests, etc).
Yes, I think that is generally part of the “biting cure”. Little kids bite, and they often don’t realize it hurts until it happens to them. Then you get to the logical consequences of being removed from the group and the problem can get solved. But it’s obviously traumatizing the bitee, so many daycares have pretty low tolerance for it before expulsion (I think ours was 3 strikes maybe?).
I get that the thread is more about philosophically/parenting wise how would you deal with having a kid like this, but I think it’s worth reiterating that life is short and lots of kids have problems. If that kid isn’t one you spawned or aren’t otherwise responsible for, it’s best to just limit your exposure to them and let the people who are responsible for that kid deal with it.
If I had a kid who was destructive of my things or towards me I wouldn’t allow them on my property and wouldn’t willingly associate with their parents.
While this is true in general, there are many times when a parent just doesn’t have that choice. Scout Leader, team coach, volunteer in the classroom, Sunday School - you can’t always just say “not my kid, not my problem”.
Sometimes you can say “sorry, your kid is too destructive to be in my den, on my team, in my classroom”, but depending on your role that isn’t always the best choice, and having some understanding of how to handle these situations can go a long way. Sometimes you are uniquely well-positioned to help, especially if the activity you are leading is something important to the kid (like sports) and you have the power to remove them from it.
Hell, sometimes your own kid really likes the destructive kid, and it can be more problematic to say “no, you can’t be his friend” - it may cause your kid to hang out with that person in an environment you have less control over (their house, school playground, etc).
I see on preview that you included “aren’t otherwise responsible for” which may include the types of roles I mentioned here.
It is very rare that any parent is accepting of other adults trying to “fix” their kid, you’re looking for more trouble than is worth. A teacher or volunteer coach has opt-outs too.
Maybe we’re saying the same thing, I’m not sure.
All I’m saying is that in my role as an adult volunteer (Little League Coach, for example) I try to use the exact same rules regarding immediate logical consequences as I do with my own kid. The kids tend to learn pretty quick that if they act up, don’t listen, or mess around they sit on the bench while the other kids play baseball.
I highly doubt it “fixes” them, and I wouldn’t try to. But it does make practices manageable even with kids with problematic behavior.
Now obviously some kids go way beyond what any volunteer would ever want around them, and I would 100% try to keep them out of my groups. But I do believe that if you’re trying to help your community you have some obligation to not gate-keep too aggressively. The kid in the OP, especially based on the parental reaction described there, doesn’t sound like somebody I would keep off my team. But it clearly could be much worse, in which case, yeah, he’s out.
And I’d like to say again that I know a kid who was “fixed” by his kindergarten teacher. The parents were overwhelmed, and not consistent enough, I’d guess. The teacher had training and persistence and experience with kids, and managed to enforce consequences. (And no, she didn’t hit the child.)
Ugh. Until this, I was trying to be charitable toward the parents on the birthday candle thing, e.g. they knew their kid had major issues and would throw a huge meltdown if NOT allowed, so maybe ask (with great embarassment) if their snowflake could blow them out - to avert a public scene that would ruin the day for everyone.
But dad thinking it’s cute? UGH. The kid may well have issues, but there’s definitely some very bad parenting going on as well. If the parents cannot control their kid, they need help in dealing with it.
I say all this as the parent of two special needs kids (now adults). Older one diagnosed as autistic a young age, but he never tended to throw tantrums once he got past 3 or 4 years old. Younger one had violent tantrums from toddlerhood on, and there were numerous occasions where I dragged her screaming out of a public venue. As imperfect as our parenting likely was, we did NOT let our kids get away with crap like this, and we got help.
What happened on with the birthday candles? Did the birthday child’s parents say hell no?
Does the brat have any siblings? What are THEY like?
Well, to be fair, that might not work.
I went into parenting with the attitude that corporal punishment was to be avoided if possible - but I kept hearing that a quick swat on the rear was often enough to startle the child enough to stop an outburst.
This did not work with my kids. As noted, my older child (the one diagnosed as autistic as a toddler) didn’t really tantrum all that much past age 3 or so, but the time or two I tried it when he was “on another planet”, it had no effect.
My younger child was even worse - and she went to that other planet often, and until a much more advanced age, than her brother. One of the times I had to physically remove her from a situation, as she was fighting me pretty violently (and she was 7 - this was not easy) I tried swatting her and she did not even notice. I would have had to club her unconscious to have any effect - and for some reason I didn’t think giving my kid a concussion was the best plan. situations like running away from us in a parking lot - and the kids knew that. Two swats on the rear
This is an example of a “twice exceptional” child. Schools are legally required to provide the services the child needs in the “least restrictive environment”. Sounds like this scenario was attempting to provide the best of both worlds - allowing the girl’s intellectual needs to be met, while also attempting to meet her behavioral needs.
My daughter was one such. Her IQ is off the charts, and after a lot of soul-searching we sent her to the school district’s G&T magnet school - where they had no CLUE how to deal with her. She had an IEP due to the ADD / emotional issues, but especially her second year there, when her behavior worsened, they just could not deal with it. At one lengthy meeting someone actually asked if we’d had her intelligence tested. We pointed out the copy of the report, which they had on file, without being too nasty about it.
My kid fits this, too. Her IQ is not off the charts, but at least a standard deviation above average, and probably somewhat higher if she could sit for the whole test. Last year her special ed teacher was recommending her for the gifted and talented program, but she wasn’t able to test into it. My primary concern is really that they keep her at or above grade level, instead of letting her slip below grade level, because it’s easier to just let her do whatever she wants, and not try and teach her. I have no evidence that is happening, and the school seems on top of things.
This kind of thing is very important, but it can also be not nearly as effective with neurodivergent kids as opposed to kids who just need a bit of control. Many of these kids have executive function disorders that make it extremely difficult for them to associate actions with consequences. The kid genuinely might not understand that his behavior caused them to leave the party early.
My kid is like this. Rewards work pretty well, but adverse consequences are nearly meaningless to her. her: Why doesn’t my tablet work?
me: You forgot to plug it in. You should plug it in now so it’s ready later.
her: leaves it on the table and runs out of the room
every day.
Rewards work well to get her to do unwanted behaviors. Last year her teacher started giving her a class store penny for every minute she wore her mask in class. That took a few weeks to sink in, but eventually she would wear her mask without issue. During remote learning, we would give her a chocolate for every sentence she would write.
Rewards do not work well to get her to avoid behaviors. Rewards for avoiding soiled pants, not throwing things, etc. have been complete failures.
The kid has a narcissistic personality disorder. He has not grown up in an environment where he is held accountable for his actions.
I hope you don’t plug it in for her.
That he’s also being raised in a massively inconsistent manner doesn’t help, either.
One of my nieces comes close to this. Her IQ is probably a bit above average, but she has several different sensory processing disorders that led to violent outbursts (shot-putting her desk, that kind of thing) and one thing led to another and she was home-schooled for a while. She would go to the school every morning and meet with other kids who were HSed under similar circumstances for a social skills group, and then they would take the lessons for the day home; she would usually be done by noon, and she and her mom (and sometimes dad) would often go do something fun and educational in the afternoon. I’m grateful that they were able to use an option like this; many families aren’t.
There’s enormous gray area between pkbites’ advice to be an abusive parent, and the parents in the OP and their absurd enabling. Both extremes are terrible parenting approaches, even if only one should result in a report to DSS.
I will say that this pandemic has fucked kids up something awful, and as we return to school we’re seeing behaviors far more severe and pervasive than we’re used to seeing. I think the trauma of the pandemic has hit a lot of families hard. Plenty of kids don’t appear to have bedtimes, plenty of kids don’t remember how to follow simple instructions, plenty of kids have forgotten that a momentary desire not to do a task doesn’t excuse them from doing the task. It’s real hard right now for them, and for everyone around them.
Doesn’t mean you should, Christ almighty, “jack them up” when they’re “a bit rambunctious.” It means that the authorities in their life need to establish clear boundaries and help kids see the adults as trustworthy mentors who can help them develop the self-discipline they need in order to be the person they want to be. It’s real hard to be that kind of adult, much harder than just fuckin’ whipping the kids or screaming at them; but hey, adulting is hard.
That’s the role of the authorities in their life. OP, I’m sorry. Best advice I have for you is, not your circus, not your monkeys, but at least you can keep them monkeys out of your tent.
I just want to mention that my son and @bump son were in 1st grade together and his son blew out my son’s birthday candles. It was a funny moment, we all laughed and re-lit them, and then my son blew them out. Although a double-spitted birthday cake seems much more disgusting post-covid, overall it was a good memory.
But that’s because all the adults reacted appropriately and like, well, adults. So the birthday candle thing didn’t need to be a deal, if the dad hadn’t made it one.
Yeah, I was pretty horrified! He definitely didn’t ask beforehand, and I would have told him absolutely not! He’s not willfully destructive, malicious or even spiteful though; at six, he just didn’t get it. He’s kind of special in that way that a very high functioning autistic and gifted kid can be, and sometimes things like that don’t make it onto his radar.
But yeah, it was funny- nobody expected it, and @MandaJo & everyone took it in stride.
Exactly. I have no idea about the kid in the OPs story, nor do I have any reason to doubt that account, but I can see someone who doesn’t know many kids spinning that as a horrible incident, when really it was funny. Adrian probably thought it was horrible, come to think of it.
One big thing about kids is their utter self-centeredness. They are the center of their universe, and that’s a normal part of development. It can be had as an adult to understand they they aren’t actually trying to drive you crazy. It’s not the actual goal. Things that look “deliberately destructive” are often not deliberately anything. They are just a mess.
We are child free. One of my sisters more than made up for it and doubled down by not parenting. When one of her children came in our home and ran right over and kicked one of our cats, we told my sister to control her daughter or take her home. Much drama ensued and that sister hasn’t talked to me for 30 years. Except when she wants money, of course.
That niece is now living a very sad and impulsive life. I’d like to think that if she had been parented things would have turned out better for her, but who knows.
I wouldn’t be surprised to find that out either!
But there are kids who do just wreck stuff for no other reason than it’s there. I knew a few when I was a kid actually. They were just destructive because they could be, they enjoyed the attention they got for destroying stuff, and the consequences were pretty low for them. I can remember thinking that I’d never have done that sort of thing, because I’d have been punished, made to make some form of restitution, either financial or labor, and made to apologize. But those kids were ones whose parents were kind of ineffective at setting or following through on consequences.