My sister is a psychologist at a facility that works with kids who’ve been in serious trouble with the law, and neither she nor I can relate to the kinds of lives these kids are living. I’m hoping she’ll move on to another job soon, she’s been looking for a while (I’d rather see her working with creative neurotics). In the meantime I thought I’d ask Dopers if anyone can relate to the scenarios found at such a facility.
Today, for example, one of her teenagers opened up a bit and revealed a frightening inner life. Violence as a means of solving all problems (although he doesn’t label it violence, just “beating them down” because the strongest person should win), an idealization of anarchy, a total lack of respect for laws or society. Naturally this kid’s parents are from the same cloth, the kind who mouth back to the judge at hearings. A lot of her patients talk in group therapy about jail life as if it were college, just somewhere you go once you’re old enough. They live in their own context.
I think these kids need boot camp, not therapy, but I thought I’d ask - are there any Dopers who came from that kind of background and managed to overcome it? It’s totally foreign to me, I’d have no idea how to reach these kids & I’m not sure a Ph.D. is any help, either. Consequences don’t seem to make a difference, as they’re not daunted in the least by incarceration.
I suppose to make this Pit-worthy it would be appropriate to toss in the suggestion that some people should be given up on, for the sake of their future victims. I’d hate to really believe that, but I just don’t know.
That is the way many of the kids in this town are. I don’t trust many of them an inch, because if they get a chance, they will lie, cheat, trick, or steal from you to further their own interests. I don’t associate with people like that, once they reveal that kind of nature I avoid them. They fear Goths, so I don’t often get the threats of violence.
However, my husband and I borrowed his dad’s truck and went to another town for my birthday celebration, and nearly got t-boned by a teenage girl. She was at fault, she was speeding through the park, and her lane was the merge lane, she wasn’t yeilding at all. We pulled over the truck to regain our composure, and they did a circuit of the park, and pulled up beside us. As my husband is trying to turn the key to start the truck, a teenage guy piles out of the back, cursing and threatening us. We finally managed to get away, but not without me doing the “Crazy Woman” act to make him pause and not open the truck door. (He intended to drag my husband out of the truck, beat him, and possibly rape me from what he was saying, and the way he acted.)
What this entailed was me advising him that it would not be wise of him to come closer. He paused, because he wasn’t certain if I had a weapon or not. (I didn’t, but the doubt in this case was a good thing.) People in this area think Goths always “carry”. It’s an element in the prevailing stereotype around here. We drove straight to the police station, and took a path out of town, and back home meant to confuse pursuers. We know they followed us as far as the police station.
I did not grow up in that context, but I’m familiar with it. I used to work in one of those places that deals with this particular type of kid.
A great many rednecks grew up in the country, living the farm life, and are not really capable of understanding anything OUTSIDE farm life.
A great many New Yorkers grew up in New York, living the New York experience, and are not really capable of understanding anything OUTSIDE New York.
A great many Los Angelinos grew up in LA, living the LA experience, and are not really capable of understanding anything OUTSIDE LA… or southern Cal, at least.
It’s a normal human kind of thing. Some of us are capable of transcending ourselves. Some are not.
We don’t generally regard this as a problem except when the failure to transcend oneself involves criminal behavior.
Barb and I took a serious cut at this back in 1991-92, as “our boys” had a number of friends either in trouble with the law or the only reason they weren’t was inefficient police work.
You can effect a significant change through acceptance of who they are, an attempt at understanding how they perceive and interpret things, combined with an attitude that expects them to be decent, at minimum towards you and their peers (and builds from that). Most people tend to become what they’re expected to be.
I don’t recommend this methodology as a general practice. First, it’s vitiated by being part of the Establishment, and misunderstood by authorities if it isn’t officially sanctioned. We only were able to do it because several juvenile officers understood what we were up to and arranged a tacit hands-off for our efforts. Second, it’s immensely stressful. Third, it requires at least one teen, with leadership qualities, who grasps what’s going on and buys into it to make it work. We were able to deal with the stress for a year or so, and we had that teen, and later a few others whom he “converted.”
The rewards are heartwarming when you do have a success – and every case is in some way a partial success: there is a change for the better. People do not change overnight, and you learn to feel positive about the good done rather than bewailing what is left undone.
For those who think the solution lies in further harshness, I have only one thing to say, other than the Golden Rule:
Quite so. The toughest part is establishing for these kids that there IS AN ALTERNATIVE to the life they lead…
…and convincing them that it WILL WORK for them if they let it…
…and convincing them that what they are doing NOW is self-destructive.
They won’t wanna listen to you. If you ain’t nineteen, you old, and therefore something to be rebelled against. Getting one of THEM to buy into the system and act as a bridge is essential.
It works better in a locked facility, frankly. And it ain’t cheap.
I worked in just such a facility for several years and in several capacities including therapist, and direct care staff.
I think to understand the mentality, it might help to read the work of Lawrence Kohlberg on moral development. It’s not entirely age inappropriate (actually, it kind of is) that an adolescent believe this way. We all pretty much came from such a background in terms of believing at one time in our lives that might made right.
That “beating them down” comment sounds like a cop out to me, a way of avoiding the real issue. the counselors would do well to acknowledge that violence is one viable strategy and use the old Dr Phil question “how’s that working out for you?” Then explore if the person feels 100% that way in 100% of situations, or is it just in certain situations? Then work with the person on how he exercises it as choice, and can choose to do it when he wants.
Keep in mind also that you’re getting the second hand version of this, which almost always robs the subject of humanity and depth. You’re hearing about a sociopath that hates everyone because that’s the part your sister tells you, she doesn’t tell you about how this kid would defend his mother’s honor with his life, or that he cries when he watches Disney movies, or that he’s got a really good sense of humor.
If she isn’t able to see beyond the above mentioned, maybe she’s in the wrong game, and working with creative neurotics isn’t going to be good for either her or the neurotics.
Boot camp- great for making people behave. It can be an essential component to change with people who have a might=right mentality; but it’s only a first step.
-bullshit. They hate incarceration, they’re just trying to make themselves sound punishment proof. It’s a power struggle tactic. Give any of them the choice of the Jail vs. the treatment center, and see what happens.
Sure, you threaten them with jail and they’ll say “I don’t give a shit, put me in jail”
all they’re doing is trying to get you to stop threatening them.
Thanks for the feedback everyone, I’m glad I asked.
You may be right, greck, that she’s in the wrong game; that’s a possibility she’s actively considering. Certainly these kids aren’t the kind of patient she’s best suited to help.
What you say, Polycarp and Master Wang-Ka, about needing a bridge makes a lot of sense.
I don’t trust many of them an inch, because if they get a chance, they will lie, cheat, trick, or steal from you to further their own interests. I don’t associate with people like that, once they reveal that kind of nature I avoid them. They fear Goths, so I don’t often get the threats of violence.