Dean versus the confederates

[kniz]

*Originally posted by monstro *
The Confederacy was in support of slavery and against full rights for colored people. It was not the Confederacy that freed its slaves, and there is no reason to believe it would have without the intercession of the Union.

Painting the south as the bad guys and the north as the saviors of the slaves is part of the reason that I think you are not being fair.

**
guess who.**
My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that

These things cannot be denied: The Stars and Stripes were routinely marched out during anti-integregation protests during the 50s. The imagery is still crisp in many Americans’ minds, with pictures of people holding flags and banners of this symbol as they hurl racial slurs in the faces of young people going to school. Why was this symbol chosen if it’s not “reasonable” to associate it with white supremacy?

You have no idea how seeing this happen has torn at my heart and that of many other southerners. It is for this reason that I have never flown the stars and bars or used a sticker of it, etc. I at one time owned a very nice flag and kept it in a chest. For me this is reasonable, but digging way back to the civil war IMHO is going too far.

Better yet, why make a big deal when people find it offensive? I’m not saying you are, kniz, but it sure seems
like the most vehement on the pro-flag side refuse to see why there’s good cause to be offended. To be sure, there are quite a few on the “anti” side who are not understanding either, but from my experiences as a southerner living in the North, it seems like there are more of the former than the latter. Why is that?

Since you posted this, have you had any reservations about saying the “pro-flag” side on a whole is being less reasonable than the “anti-flag” side?

In answer to the “Why is that?” part, I think the fact that you are a southerner living in the north gives the answer. You see you and I are counter-parts. I am a northerner, who has lived in the south for 44 years. You hear someone from the south say something in support of the stars and bars and you immediately think of all the grief you have received from your friends and neighbors over that subject. I hear someone say something like that of the OP and I immediately think of all the grief I’ve received on the same subject but from the opposite view. Why don’t I see things the same as you do? That’s why.

Let me use an example that may explain the difference.

Originally posted by cainxinth
All people who wear cowboy hats, boots, stirrups, etc. are cowboys, except for the random nut job.

I personally cannot believe that someone hasn’t taken him to the for this. Perhaps, where cainzinth is from it is true, but in many parts of the U.S. it is simply untrue. Is it then reasonable
for him to make that statement or is it a bunch of bull. Is he being prejudiced or expressing what is true where he lives? If you are in Dallas and see someone with a cowboy hat on and wearing boots, he is certainly not a nut or a cowboy. If you see someone wearing the same thing walking down a Boston street that might draw some strange looks.

As I said I’ve never displayed the stars and bars anywhere, but if I do it will not be anywhere north of Tennessee. If I should meet you in a bar in your hometown I would not respond to any comment I heard concerning the stars and bars. I have pointed out twice in this thread that it was not started by someone on the “pro-flag” side. If one is ever started I will either tell them to “shut up” or refrain from making any posts. There was a thread once that I did post in that may be considered to be pro-flag, but I was a newbie then and I believe it was started to stir up trouble. Of course, I don’t want someone coming down here and spouting off about the flags they may see. It wouldn’t be long before someone would ask me “Hey, kniz, what is it with you yankees?”

[ul] [sup]Everything is relative.[/sup][/ul]

[monstro]

g8rguy:

And from there, I’ve utterly lost you. You seem, to me, to be saying that flying the flag is a statement in support of racism because lots of people think the flag is a racist symbol. I am simply saying that these people are being prejudiced inasmuch as they assume that a person is a racist based on a symbol whose meaning depends on who is asked.

The nature of symbols is that rarely are their meanings explicit. If I see a swatiska, I don’t naturally think, “Mmm, this is a symbol that could mean anti-semitism or peace equally,” even though these the symbol means both things.

Prejudice doesn’t necessarily mean evil. If I’m caught on the street late at night, I’m going to stay away from the big burly man more than the little old lady, even though both could be packing heat. If I see a man holding a peace sign and another man holding a swatiska, is it wrong for me to gravitate towards the peace sign? I’m being prejudiced, right? I think prejudice isn’t inherently immoral in these situations, and I think it’s silly to pretend that we have to be rational and logical in all of our decisions.

kniz:

Painting the south as the bad guys and the north as the saviors of the slaves is part of the reason that I think you are not being fair.

Pretending that the South wasn’t more “peculiar” than the North is also not being fair. The North had slavery, yes, but not to the extent that the South did. The North had discriminatory laws and policies, yes, but not to the extent that the South did. A black man had many more advantages living in the North than they did in the South. The Confederate flag, whether rightly or wrongly, has come to represent the hell that black people caught living in the South. It has come to represent this “peculiar” nature of the South.

For me this is reasonable, but digging way back to the civil war IMHO is going too far.

But why? People who are educated about this issue know that the flag’s link to the Civil War is tenuous, but do most people know this? I mean, the thing is referred to as–by both it’s opponents and proponents–the “Confederate Flag”. When I think of the word “Confederate”, I think of the Civil War, and I think most reasonable people do too.

Since you posted this, have you had any reservations about saying the “pro-flag” side on a whole is being less reasonable than the “anti-flag” side?

No, not really. canxinth’s behavior in this thread isn’t laudable at all, but my in-real-life observations still stand.

In answer to the “Why is that?” part, I think the fact that you are a southerner living in the north gives the answer. You see you and I are counter-parts. I am a northerner, who has lived in the south for 44 years. You hear someone from the south say something in support of the stars and bars and you immediately think of all the grief you have received from your friends and neighbors over that subject. I hear someone say something like that of the OP and I immediately think of all the grief I’ve received on the same subject but from the opposite view. Why don’t I see things the same as you do? That’s why.

When I hear someone speak of the Confederate flag with respect, I don’t assume they are ignorant and insensitive. It’s only when I hear people arguing why it should be kept hanging as a state flag, or when I hear pro-flaggers crying about how their heritage is being ripped away from them, while refusing to understand how my heritage and their heritage are linked together. In my public speaking class in college, there were so many people who wanted to do their persuasive talk on the “pro-flag” side that the instructor banned that topic. Many Georgians are obsessed with the issue. They were so pissed with Barnes for “foolin’” with the flag that they elected a man who put the reinstating it–a frickin flag!–on his platform. And he won.

It seems to me that if most pro-flaggers understood the “other side”, this wouldn’t have happened.

I recently read how Perdue’s supporters are disappointed in his current backpeddling from the flag issue. I was watching the news when I was down home once and they actually showed a woman crying because of it!

These are the people who I don’t understand. I’ve never met a Northerner who cried because of the Confederate flag. I understand it’s not as a big of a deal to them. I wish it wasn’t a big deal to Southerners.

One argument that has been expressed on this thread (and I’ve heard elsewhere) is that since the US has perpetrated the same crimes as the South, we should find equal offense with the US flag. Well, there are many Americans who don’t like the US flag just for that reason. My parents are two of these people. I wasn’t allowed to have souveneir American flags growing up. I don’t hold the same attitudes because I like to think the principles behind the US flag are more important than the practices.

But I can’t feel the same way about the Confederate flag. Also, the US flag hasn’t been appropriated by hate groups in the same way that the Confederate flag has been.

[pantom]

The US flag for a country that has as its ideal “all men are created equal”. The Confederate flag stands for a country that, in its short life, had for its ideal the exact opposite thought.
That should be enough. Sadly, it isn’t.

[g8rguy]

*Originally posted by monstro *
**The nature of symbols is that rarely are their meanings explicit. If I see a swatiska, I don’t naturally think, “Mmm, this is a symbol that could mean anti-semitism or peace equally,” even though these the symbol means both things. **

Sure; unquestionably each of us may have a different interpretation of a symbol. I certainly don’t interpret the swastika in the same way that lokij might, for example. I think that sort of gets at the heart of the issue.

I guess I’m trying to say that because different people interpret a symbol differently, we shouldn’t make the mistake of assuming that people using a given symbol give it the same meaning we do. And we certainly shouldn’t condemn them for holding some particular view when the only reason we have to believe that they hold that view is because they use a symbol which we (and, admittedly, many others) associate with that view.

That doesn’t mean we have to be comfortable with them using that symbol, and it doesn’t mean we have to like it, but surely we owe people a fair shake before we judge them? Or at least, we owe people a fair shake before we do things which might hurt them.

I really do think that if I saw that Bob’s car had a confederate flag decal somewhere, it’s okay for me to be uncomfortable around Bob, it’s okay for me to avoid Bob, but it’s not okay for me to call up my friends and tell them that Bob’s a racist. And the difference is that neither my discomfort nor my avoidance does Bob any harm, while my calling Bob a racist probably does do him harm. Until I have something firmer on which to base my accusation, I shouldn’t make it. That’s, in a nutshell, the point I’m trying to make.

Prejudice doesn’t necessarily mean evil. <snip> I think prejudice isn’t inherently immoral in these situations, and I think it’s silly to pretend that we have to be rational and logical in all of our decisions.

I agree completely that prejudice needn’t be inherently evil. I do think, though, that allowing our prejudices to justify mistreating another is inherently evil.

So in your examples, you’ve shown prejudice (and also, I think, wisdom), but you haven’t used that prejudice to justify hurting another, so it’s all good. If instead of staying away from the big burly chap in favor of being on the same side of the street as the little old lady, you were to accuse the big burly chap of doing something wrong because after all, he’s a big burly chap, then there’s something wrong. I know you wouldn’t do that, of course. But that’s where I think the distinction comes into play.

Maybe I’m just rationalizing, because of course it’s my own prejudice that leads me to be uncomfortable with people who use the confederate flag, or the swastika, and I don’t see that discomfort as a problem. Nor do I see using that discomfort as an excuse to avoid these people as a problem. Maybe that’s not being consistent; I think it is, but getting around one’s prejudices is very difficult at best.

[monstro]

I see what you’re saying, g8rguy. And I agree with your point.

[g8rguy]

Grand. I think, then, that my work here is done.

[2sense]

*Originally posted by g8rguy *
**And from there, I’ve utterly lost you. You seem, to me, to be saying that flying the flag is a statement in support of racism because lots of people think the flag is a racist symbol. I am simply saying that these people are being prejudiced inasmuch as they assume that a person is a racist based on a symbol whose meaning depends on who is asked.

** It isn’t prejudice to see a 7-11 sign and think, “Slurpie.” Nor is it prejudice to see a red light and think, “Stop.” Similarly it isn’t prejudice to see a rebel flag and think “racism”. That’s what the symbol means to lots of people. That’s not prejudice, it’s comprehension.

**And I don’t see that you’ve provided any meaningful rebuttal to any of this; you haven’t demonstrated why it is the fault of the flag-flier that people take him to be supporting racist beliefs. **

No, I don’t think it is the fault of any particular individual that the confederate flag is a racist symbol. That doesn’t change the fact that the flag is a racist symbol and that displaying such symbols helps spread racism. How can you not find fault with someone spreading racism?

[Evil_Captor]

*Originally posted by g8rguy *
**In the case of someone wandering around in the SS uniform, carrying a sign that says “Jews must die,” it’s an excellent inference to assume that the person is anti-Semitic. In the case of someone flying the Confederate flag, it is a less reasonable inference to assume that the person is a racist. **

Yes, only in 999 out of 1000 will you be RIGHT about people flying the Confederate flag being racists. There is that 1 in 1000 guy who adores the Old South but hates racism. Snerk.

Tell you what. Go to a confab of “historic South” fans. Hear them talk about the South. Sooner or later, you’ll hear the words. “Slavery wasn’t so bad as people say it was …” Followed shortly by, “Well, the Negroes is just slower than us.” From flying the Confederate flag to racism isn’t a slippery slope. It’s a cliff.

The only exception I’ll make for the Confederate flag is when it’s used for legitimate historic purposes – such as historical battle reenactments. If you’re flying it in the current culture, you damn well know what it means. So do we, and no amount of bullshit will get around that fact.

[Evil_Captor]

To be fair, I think Dean’s onto something. I just think he went a little far over the edge with the Confederate flag comment. There are a lot of beer-drinking guys who drive pickups here in the South who DON’T have Confederate flags on them, cause they damn well know what Confederate flags mean and disagree with what it means. Separating this crew from the racist teevee idjit core of the Southern vote is actually a damn good idea. Might just win a surprising number of elections for the Dems. Making a few noises about “respecting the Southern lifestyle and Southern values” might be all that it would take.

[Shodan]

Yes, only in 999 out of 1000 will you be RIGHT about people flying the Confederate flag being racists. There is that 1 in 1000 guy who adores the Old South but hates racism. Snerk.

Nicely put.

In the same way, you can be sure, 999 times out of 1000, that kid with his hat turned backwards and the sagging pants is looking to steal your wallet and buy crack.

Separating this crew from the racist teevee idjit core of the Southern vote is actually a damn good idea. Might just win a surprising number of elections for the Dems.

Oh yeah, I buy this.

“Most of y’all are racist morons. But one in a thousand of you isn’t - so vote for Dean!” That’s gonna win a LOT of elections, for sure. :rolleyes:

Regards,
Shodan

[Beagle]

Second, you can’t just pick and choose which aspects of a symbol you want it to represent.

WTF? I study the Civil War. When I think of the Confederate Battle Flag I think of battles.

When I think of the American Flag, for some bizarre reason I always think of it flying over a carrier in the Pacific being attacked by kamikazes. Sorry, I’m screwed, I guess.

[Ross Perot] Here’s the deal. Don’t insult peoples great-grandaddies, especially in the South. [/RP] “Great-grandpappy Jethro did not fight for slavery because he was too poor to own any.” — note: hypothetical that applies with some force throughout the whole Deep South to “white” people.

“Jethro” and four of his eight brothers were blown to little pieces though. Three others were missing limbs. So, please don’t insult them. Simple enough? As far as I’ve looked I only have Union ancestors, but there is a TN branch I haven’t followed up on yet.

[Beagle]

Whenever I think of “an” American Flag. That one was geometric with 48 stars.

Even when I lived in GA, the feeling I got was that whites and blacks live together pretty well, but not in perfect harmony. To reduce all this down to Southern Confederate sympathy might be the single stupidest thing Dean has ever said or done.

Again, this is a direct attack at his base in the South. Dean is the Confederate here. As Shodan noted, but let me make an example:

Let’s say it’s a Southern real estate lawyer with three ancestors that died at Gettysburg (I’ve known people like that), “I’m a racist because I reenact Civil War battles while waving a giant Stars and Bars?” “Well,” shrug R repeat

Dean debated reductio ad absurdum. Well, OK, I’ll consider re-joining the Union under Dean’s leadership?! I’m still not sure I get it. I’ve been considering this for days.

I would, however, consider waving around a Stars and Bars just to offend people now.

[Bruce_Daddy]

It is painfully obvious that some are too blunt to seperate a handful of idiot radicals from a historic and cultural symbol.

Therefore, I am going to start displaying the First National flag and nobody would ever know the difference.

[Bruce_Daddy]

And, me talk pretty one day. :smack:

[Beagle]

I pit the Early Union against the Early Confederacy and Puerto Rico with Cuba as the wildcard playing off both sides. Nobody would know who to shoot at. Hey, they speak Spanish! blam Whoops!

Another thing people should consider is Confederate Flags at Confederate historic sites to lend authenticity. Personally, I think that it can be chilling is a good thing. Fort Sumter and the surrounding historical sites – plus ocean – is a great way to kill a couple days.

In Virginia, for example, you cannot throw a rock without hitting a Civil War battlefield. People are seriously steeped in Civil War tradition that people in NY cannot understand. If REL had fought all over NY, well, then you’d understand. I’m not saying I do understand, but I try to differentiate between a flag and the actual insurrection of the Confederate States of America and the Civil War. Um, we’re (I’m) past that. I do know reenactors with Confederate uniforms and big flags that probably just got pissed off – again – by this whole flap.

I have enough Virginia connections to know that this whole issue could really backfire. Civil War history obsessed people are pretty common in the South. They will spin things every which way, as if the war was yesterday.

Don’t confuse that with actual Civil War. You’d know.

[g8rguy]

*Originally posted by 2sense *
It isn’t prejudice to see a 7-11 sign and think, “Slurpie.” Nor is it prejudice to see a red light and think, “Stop.” Similarly it isn’t prejudice to see a rebel flag and think “racism”.

It is, however, prejudice to see a person with a rebel flag and think “racist,” go on to think “bad person, must oppress,” and carry out your actions. Because, you see, that’s you projecting your incomplete understanding of something onto another. Not unlike seeing a person with dark skin and thinking “criminal, must pull over and write ticket” you are taking a superficial quality that many people (in the latter case, stupidly) associate with a particular behavior or attitude and using the possession of that quality to justify treating a person as if he possessed the behavior or attitude. And that’s wrong. It’s also stupid.

That doesn’t change the fact that the flag is a racist symbol and that displaying such symbols helps spread racism.

For the love of God, that’s what I’ve been asking you, repeatedly, to justify. And… once more, you stick your fingers in your ears and say “it does, it does, I tell you it does!” WHY?
As far as Evil Captor, try me again when you have something less peurile to say than “almost everybody who flies the confederate flag is a racist.” Try me again when you understand monstro’s point that symbols mean different things to different people. Try me again, in short, when you have a reasonable point to make.

[kniz]

Originally posted by monstro
Pretending that the South wasn’t more “peculiar” than the North is also not being fair. The North had slavery, yes, but not to the extent that the South did. The North had discriminatory laws and policies, yes, but not to the extent that the South did. A black man had many more advantages living in the North than they did in the South.

I did not pretend that the South wasn’t more “peculiar” than the North. What I said was that the South is always painted black and the North painted white in any discussion of this type. Specifically what I was talking about is the insinuation that the North fought to free the blacks from slavery. That quote was made by Lincoln. It make it crystal clear that he did not go to war to over slavery. There are other quotes that make his true feelings even clearer. Because I brought the matter up, you grudgingly admitted that the North wasn’t lily white. I bet that really hurt.

monstro cont.
No, not really. canxinth’s behavior in this thread isn’t laudable at all, but my in-real-life observations still stand.

Frankly, I don’t give a damn about your IRL observations. You still ignore the fact that it was canxinth who started this thread. It is my IRL and SDMB observations that these type of threads (discussions) always come from people from his point of view.

Originally posted by Evil Captor
Yes, only in 999 out of 1000 will you be RIGHT about people flying the Confederate flag being racists. There is that 1 in 1000 guy who adores the Old South but hates racism. Snerk.

Show me a similar statement from those of us who refuse to accept such reasoning.

Evil Captor cont.
There are a lot of beer-drinking guys who drive pickups here in the South who DON’T have Confederate flags on them, cause they damn well know what Confederate flags mean and disagree with what it means. Separating this crew from the racist teevee idjit core of the Southern vote is actually a damn good idea. Might just win a surprising number of elections for the Dems. Making a few noises about “respecting the Southern lifestyle and Southern values” might be all that it would take.

In the first place Dean specifically included those that you are excluding. As someone that drives a pickup that does not have a sticker on it (except an inspection sticker) I must confess that your method of persuasion leaves me cold. What kind of noises do you suggest the Dems make in regards to subjects like: abortion, prayer in schools, national defense, gay rights, judical appointments, state-rights, etc., etc., etc.? Personally I am pro-choice, against prayer in schools, and far from being a fundalmentalist but then again I’ve never claimed to be a Southerner. I can tell you that Dean inferring that good ole boys are poor and ignorant did not win any votes irregardless of any stickers on trucks.

monstro that story about your folks not allowing you to have Old Glory, reminds me of someone I knew in college. He said his mother wouldn’t let him buy a record (old 45 rpm), because it had “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” on the other side. Do you suppose this might have influenced your feelings on this matter?

[monstro]

kniz:

monstro that story about your folks not allowing you to have Old Glory, reminds me of someone I knew in college. He said his mother wouldn’t let him buy a record (old 45 rpm), because it had “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” on the other side. Do you suppose this might have influenced your feelings on this matter?

I don’t want to respond to someone who doesn’t give a damn about my experiences and observations.

Plus, I don’t understand the question.

[Beagle]

IRL, even living out “in the country” (suburbs) I don’t see Confederate flags. Nor did I see many of them in GA for the several years I lived there. I saw lots of red and black, which is equally offensive.

Also, IRL, I’ll admit – a truck festooned with the Confederate Flag and some other clues would make me nervous. There are some white supremacists that openly advertise. Which, I guess, is nice so you can steer clear.

[rjung]

Silly idea time: let’s split the difference, and make both the Confederate Flag and the Black Panthers illegal.